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sunnyja
i'm shopping for an elantra hatchback on the east coast. love that there's a whole community of folks out here dedicated to this car. i did not know about "modding" possibilities till i started reading up on the car. here's my laundry list of thoughts - please respond as you see fit, welcome all thoughts. thanks!!

- any advice on best way/place to get a well-priced '04 hatch GT/GLS on east coast USA (tri-state)? will dealers still have good '04 models now or are only the "lemons" left? how do i find a dealer demo model?

- am i right to think the '04 is a "better value" than '05? i.e. has CD player, will not pay the new car$ premium?

- will warranty be in effect regardless of where/how I buy? will warranty be affected by basic mods?

- what are the most basic mods that immediately enhamce perforamnce? i am not into custom appearance/interior/engine sound, etc.... rather, want to know what are the mechanical "good to have" mods for acceleration & power, or ot correct known design weak spots. for instance, seems everyone is changing the air intake and doing cold air intake right off the bat. what exactly is debadging and why do it? does debadging require body work to fill tiny holes?

- honestly, is there much difference in getting manual vs. auto trans in terms of reliability? I am going for auto to make the car easy to share with other drivers when need to do so... but are there any issues with its auto transmission i should know?

- what are the real differences in the GT "tuning" vs non-GT "tuning"?

- what's the "Ario"? - saw that on an Elantra dealer website - is that a nickname for the Elantra ? are there 2 engine options on the '05?

thanks!!!
DragoZERO
where to buy is irrelevant for any car. you just gotta look around, dealers or private sellers, and find the best deal you can find. i got my 01 GLS with 9300 miles for $8500 in summer of 03.

as for the CD player..decide if you'll be in an aftermarket deck or not...they make a tremendous difference, even with the stock speakers.
03sedangirl
QUOTE
what's the "Ario"? - saw that on an Elantra dealer website - is that a nickname for the Elantra ?


Could you mean a Suzuki Aerio? confused-scratchhead3.gif
sunnyja
here's the page: http://www.millenniumhyundai.com/hyundai/models_elantra.asp

i know i asked a lot of questions, above. i should have mentiond this is my first car purchase, other than a $500 junker '80 ford thunderbird i once bought from a so-called friend which i owned for literally 2 weeks. i do not have a car now, so shopping for an '04 seem like a puzzle... not sure where are my best chances to find one. that's my main concern now. number two would be understanding the basic performance mods in terms of why do them and what the benefis are... thanks!
bikerPA
QUOTE (sunnyja @ Feb 27 2005, 12:47 AM)


...our friends at Millennium Hyundai appear to have incompetent web help and/or an incompetent guy paying said help. They are in fact talking about the Suzuki Aerio in that blurb, which does have a 155hp engine, as opposed to the 138hp Elantra. I'm glad you found us rather than relying solely on that dealership's information. wink.gif

I'm unaware of dealerships north of Maryland or so, but we've got a few club members in NE Pennsylvania and near NYC, hopefully they'll chime in here.

To answer your questions: by all means try to find a new-old-stock or low-miles '04 if you want a Kenwood CD/MP3 player, but if you get a GT then you'll at least get a CD player regardless of year. I'm partial to the 04 because I own one, but the ONLY difference I've yet seen between 04 and 05 is that the 04 comes with the Kenwood while the 05 has a hyundai-badged Clarion system.

You get the 100k drivetrain/60k b-to-b warranty with any new car purchase from Hyundai; if you buy used, it drops to 60k drivetrain, I believe.

I highly highly recommend picking up a swaybar from a Tiburon GT as your first mod - depending on how you get it it'll run $60 shipped (used from somebody over on newtiburon.com) to $180 (getting $#@&ed by a dealer), but it's an easy bolt-on mod that'll make the car handle much better.

Debadging simply means removing factory badges through creative use of a hair dryer and dental floss. In the case of the H oval badges on the front and rear, if you choose to remove those then holes will be left, but the "elantra," "hyundai," and "gt" logos will come clean off.

I recommend the stickshift, as it lets you milk a bit more power out of the engine at 5500rpm on-ramp merges and is a lot more fun to drive, but that's a personal thing.

GT vs non-GT: you get cool-colored dash lights, firmer strut valving, alloy wheels, a spoiler, foglights, and leather seats; also, front and rear swaybars are a couple millimeters thicker, but you're replacing the rear one, right? wink.gif so that doesn't matter quite as much.

*whew!* Let us know if there is anything else you'd like to know, and welcome to the club!! thumbsup.gif
sunnyja
thanks - that was great and a very fast response! i'll have to do the math on all that. so much cool stuff... my budget is 10K,
... depending on how good a deal i find, or how patient i am, i'd like to get:
- new CAI
- wider, larger wheels
- front and back sway (bars/struts... have to get with the tech terms)
- security system
- maybe brighter lights (love good visibility)
- maybe spoiler, antenna and stereo.
- car cover?

so - that's why i'm stressing the purchase. i'm excited though, so its all good. thanks again.
GTSTISL
2 things- the kenwood in the GT models of the '04 skips alot. you have to buy CD player cleaner and clean it like weekly. it looks great tho. and if you get a CAI, SRI, E/H/I...it will void the warranty.
KeWLKaT
Not really. I/H/E (intake, header, exhaust) does NOT directly void warranty. It does if they can prove that they part that blew in your engine was caused by that.

BTW... The ''I'' in I/H/E already means it either a CAI or an SRI (WAI), so no need to mention it.

smile.gif
sunnyja
so, i'm continuing to read and have more questions:

- do CAI mods ever have a longer tube that would lead some place higher on the acar so as to eliminate the flooding risk?

- in the same vein, why do they not make some of these "mods" standard? i.e. is there a beneficial reason stock intake is made is at is (other than cost)? why would they not make a wider/double exhaust standard?

- in reading people's mods, i notice some are about removing (intake insulation) or disconnecting (rear defrost) stuff... would be nice to see a list on those kinds of mods too.

- is there a place i can read up on 4-2-1 headers? like the basic mechanics of that... i do not know that....

- are there significant differences in individual models, i.e. how different will 2 GLS '05 cars be from each other? could one need a sway bar and the other not?

- i do not have a garage or car repair tools - how realistic is it for me to think i can buy a few parts aand ask a hyundai service station guy to install them for me as a little side job for himself?

thanks again!!!
KeWLKaT
- Yes, it's the Short Ram Intake that sits higher up, because the piping is shorter, it is also so much cheapr smile.gif

- Well, performance parts are costly that's why you only see them on expensive cars (e.g. Subaru WRX STI, Beemers, etc...) Plastic is cheaper for intakes and legal everywhere, as for exhausts, the cheap metal they use is also cheaper smile.gif

- For the intake removal, I think you're referring to the resonator removal. Anyhow, those can be all found in the DIY section of this site.

- 4-2-1 Headers : http://www.tokyo-express.co.uk/engine/exhaustman.php (there is some good info on that webpage)

- No, all cars are the same. All will need the swaybar, if everyone has the same tastes. Swaybar swapping is usually done for greater handling at high cornering speeds, so it all depends wether you need it or not.

- That is not recommended. You get to pay a LOT for not a lot. Also, a few parts such as intakes, I recommend to hide from your dealer, that way, if something happens to your car and you need warranty work done, you just swap it and they know nothing smile.gif For example, I know someone who got hydrolocking from his CAI (search about that) and his engine died. But, he quickly swapped the intake and told the dealership he didn't know how it happened... He got a brand new engine with a brand new warranty out of it.

Glad to help you, if ya got any other questions, just email me wink.gif
sunnyja
Well, i got to test drive to elantras since my last posts, an 05 and an 04 GT, both automatic... The "passing accelaration" (I made that term up - sure there's a better phrase for it) was surprisingly soft. Like going 10-20 in heavy traffic and wanting to zoom into an opening... I'd press the gas and then it was count one-two and then you speed up. this was on the used '04, since the new '05 i only got to drive slowly around the block. that one seemed better, but they did not let me take it out on a real road. so i'm not sure if the '04 had issues or if that's how 138 hp is... i'm sure it would be fine once i tried to accelarate from 40 to 50, or 50 to 70, etc... i've rented sonatas and they are good at highways speed passing. unfortunately i've driven sonats in florida, where its all highway. however, i live in NYC and there are lots of chances to wish for a pep in the 5 mph to 30 mph range... i can not get stick shift, so what do you guys think? plus, the brakes on the '04 felt "soft". they worked fine, but the pedal was way down, not much tension to it. again, i do not know if i am just not used to it or of these are issues ion the car...

so, along these lines, from an auto transmission perspective, are there tuning options (not true equipment mods and part swaps) that can boost power in the range i have an interest in?

finally, on the topic of CAI, etc... I still find it hard to believe that manufacturer's would not provide a better intake and a wider exhaust for cost reasons. my point is that the stock engine must be optimized for something... whether its safety or efficiency or least wear and tear I do not know. in my uneducated opnion it seems the mods must extoll some kind of counter productive effect on some level, otherwise hyundai would definitely have spent a few nickels in extra aluminum pipe to provide more power if there were no other considerations. anyone?

thanks a lot!!!
ricerrx7
Emissions is the root of all evil. Evil being crappy stock parts that don't flow. I've driven a stick, and an automatic version of the '02 (not sure how the difference is between years) and I can tell you the stick feels significantly faster. It would definately be worth learning just for that reason. As far as the brakes go, they might need to be bled. I'm confused when it comes to tuning options that don't require changing anything. The only thing I can think of that could qualify would be a good set of ground wires.
bikerPA
QUOTE (sunnyja @ Mar 7 2005, 09:15 PM)
finally, on the topic of CAI, etc... I still find it hard to believe that manufacturer's would not provide a better intake and a wider exhaust for cost reasons.  my point is that the stock engine must be optimized for something... whether its safety or efficiency or least wear and tear I do not know.  in my uneducated opnion it seems the mods must extoll some kind of counter productive effect on some level, otherwise hyundai would definitely have spent a few nickels in extra aluminum pipe to provide more power if there were no other considerations.  anyone?
*


Another major factor behind purposely restrictive stock bits, I believe, is noise. Your typical Elantra purchaser isn't into performance as much as they're into a dependable, comfortable, high-value commuter. For a lot of folks "comfortable" means (among other things) quiet, and so we've got an intake that restricts airflow in the name of sound control and an exhaust that doesn't start to make any noise until 4000rpm.

Hyundai is in the process of addressing this, I think. Check around for posts on H.A.R.D. and you'll find that they're opening up a performance parts category in the next year or three that'll involve warrantiable turbochargers, intakes, catbacks... all sorts of dealer-installed options. We're all seriously looking forward to that. happy.gif
sunnyja
that's awesome news, thank you. i think turbo might be the thing i'll want.
also, sounds like you know waht's up, so here's a tough one:
i heard from equus on a chat a day ago that the 06 will have computer-controlled fuel line (pressure?) monitoring. any idea if that system/component can be retroactively put onto an 03 or 04?
bikerPA
QUOTE (sunnyja @ Mar 10 2005, 12:14 AM)
i heard from equus on a chat a day ago that the 06 will have computer-controlled fuel line (pressure?) monitoring.  any idea if that system/component can be retroactively put onto an 03 or 04?
*


Absolutely no idea, sorry... although with luck he'll pop by and address the question goodluck.gif
equus
QUOTE (bikerPA @ Mar 10 2005, 06:01 AM)
Absolutely no idea, sorry... although with luck he'll pop by and address the question  goodluck.gif
*

wow...not true...I said computer-controlled AUTO TRANS FLUID LINE PRESSURE....Please don't get these two FLUIDS MIXED up.....
sunnyja
thanks.... sorry for misquoting/misrepresenting. i saw your note about how to read the hma service website and i'll start checkign that out...
two followups, if i may:
1) is the atf monitoring system from the 06 "transplantable onto an 04?/03? automatic?
2) what's the best source for learnign the nuances of how the CPU 'learns" and can an auto trans driver "teach" it to favor quick shift from second to third?
roydjt
QUOTE (sunnyja @ Mar 7 2005, 07:15 PM)
Well, i got to test drive to elantras since my last posts, an 05 and an 04 GT, both automatic...  The "passing accelaration" (I made that term up - sure there's a better phrase for it) was surprisingly soft.  Like going 10-20 in heavy traffic and wanting to zoom into an opening... I'd press the gas and then it was count one-two and then you speed up.  this was on the used '04, since the new '05 i only got to drive slowly around the block.  that one seemed better, but they did not let me take it out on a real road.  so i'm not sure if the '04 had issues or if that's how 138 hp is...  i'm sure it would be fine once i tried to accelarate from 40 to 50, or 50 to 70, etc...  i've rented sonatas and they are good at highways speed passing.  unfortunately i've driven sonats in florida, where its all highway.  however, i live in NYC and there are lots of chances to wish for a pep in the 5 mph to 30 mph range...  i can not get stick shift, so what do you guys think?  plus, the brakes on the '04 felt "soft".  they worked fine, but the pedal was way down, not much tension to it.  again, i do not know if i am just not used to it or of these are issues ion the car...

so, along these lines, from an auto transmission perspective, are there tuning options (not true equipment mods and part swaps) that can boost power in the range i have an interest in?
*

The automatic transmission is electronically controlled, so when you step on the gas to accelerate, the car must realize that you want to go much faster and thus downshifts into a lower gear. This does take a fraction of a second, and can be done a little quicker with a manual transmission. If this is something you do a lot of, I would definitely recommend you go manual. From my experiences, it is rare that you can find an automatic transmission that will shift noticeably faster in any car.

You mentioned the airbox resonator mod, where parts are removed so the car can breathe a little better. Below the air filter box, there is a tube that extends into in front of the fenderwell where there is a resonator box. Attatched to this is another 2-3ft of tubing to a snorkel that sticks out in front of the battery. This serves a few purposes: 1) to ensure that the motor is breathing cool air as opposed to hot air from the engine compartment, 2) to resonate some of the sound that escapes through the intake and quiet the engine at high RPMs, and 3) to make it tough for the motor to suck in water. Many of us, myself included, have removed these parts and have noticed a slight improvement. I just put a high-flow K&N panel filter in my car and that adds a little as well, but this car will never be a sportscar. A SRI or CAI will provide greater gains, but those things cost money and some of us aren't that concerned with an additional 5-7hp.

All of the true CAI setups I have seen that fit our cars place the intake cone filter near the road behind the driver's side foglamp. This is asking for trouble, and a device like a check valve can alleviate this, but that is additional cost. A SRI can be modified so it has a feeder hose that goes into a cooler part of the motor, but now I'm talking about things I know little about.

I hope some of that answers your questions!

-Roy
equus
QUOTE (sunnyja @ Mar 10 2005, 05:00 PM)
thanks.... sorry for misquoting/misrepresenting.  i saw your note about how to read the hma service website and i'll start checkign that out...
two followups, if i may:
1) is the atf monitoring system from the 06 "transplantable onto an 04?/03? automatic?
2) what's the best source for learnign the nuances of how the CPU 'learns" and can an auto trans driver "teach" it to favor quick shift from second to third?
*

1. No>>>reason being the trans is entirely new for 06...ATM and the internal configuration of the Trans.
2. As far as a "source" for how our CPU's are programmed or the source coding ...that's a well guarded secret....
Yes a driver "can" teach the ATM a specific shift pattern. Mind you the relearn is changed to the next drivers habits>>>when you get back and drive it reverts back to your"taught" shift patterns. The total relearn process takes 5 miles and a minimum of 4 upshifts and 4 "forced" down shifts..THIS RELEARN IS ONLY DONE WHEN THE ATM SEES THAT THE TRANS HAS REACHED 122F. HENCE THE TRANS TEMP SENSOR HAS A CRITICAL ROLE IN SHIFT CONTROL.
tmant
QUOTE (sunnyja @ Mar 10 2005, 08:00 PM)
2) what's the best source for learnign the nuances of how the CPU 'learns" and can an auto trans driver "teach" it to favor quick shift from second to third?
*

Not sure how similar the learning is to my van, but I had babied the van with light acceleration that when I want more oomph, it shifts too early. I really have to give more gun it to get more acceleration.

If you are trying to get the tranny to shift from 2nd to 3rd more quickly, try letting up on the gas at the point you want it to up-shift to 3rd. Hopefully it will learn to shift into 3rd before getting too high of RPM in second.
KeWLKaT
Get a stick shift smile.gif
sunnyja
this is helpfull guys (equus and tmant), thanks! It seems there is limited "deep" user info for manual trans owners here, so I feel OK in pushing forward on this. I think others will find it usefull. (manual is not an option for everyone...)

so - does hyundai provide detailed instructions in the owners manual or elsewhere on line about making the most of the computer controls/"learning logic" associated with the manual trans? if so, i'd love to find it so I can be creative/smart about that...

also, why the big changes in the 06 auto trans and what are the benefots over the approach taken in 05/04/03 ?

thanks again!
equus
QUOTE (sunnyja @ Mar 13 2005, 08:48 AM)
this is helpfull guys (equus and tmant), thanks!  It seems there is limited "deep" user info for manual trans owners here, so I feel OK in pushing forward on this.  I think others will find it usefull.  (manual is not an option for everyone...)

so - does hyundai provide detailed instructions in the owners manual or elsewhere on line about making the most of the computer controls/"learning logic" associated with the manual trans?  if so, i'd love to find it so I can be creative/smart about that...

also, why the big changes in the 06 auto trans and what are the benefots over the approach taken in 05/04/03 ?

thanks again!
*

Manual Trans DOES NOT HAVE ANY LEARN-LOGIC.....Where did you get this info that our Manual Trans has Learning Logic? ONLY our Auto Trans system has that capability....Hope this clarifies all the RUMOURS...

Manual Trans equipped vehicles DO NOT have ANY computers controlling the Trans.
Auto Trans equipped vehicles DO HAVE an On-Board Computer controlling the Trans.

Owners Manual ONLY advices the Consumers to have good Driving Habits and what is optimum to achieve good fuel mileage and extend the life of the vehicle and how to maintain Warranty.

Specific Driving Skills CANNOT be printed in ANY OEM Auto Mfr. material as that is upto the individual driver who HAS been taught how to drive an automobile. All we can ADVICE the new vehicle owner is >>> a standard guideline of good driving habits in relation to the Specific vehicle they have purchased.
sunnyja
equus. my bad on the manual part. sorry and thanks for your patience.
on the auto trans, is there no detailed disclosure of how the learning logic works?
cclngthr
QUOTE (sunnyja @ Mar 13 2005, 05:17 PM)
equus.  my bad on the manual part.  sorry and thanks for your patience.
on the auto trans, is there no detailed disclosure of how the learning logic works?
*


It determines when to shift based on speed and throttle position, and the history of recent shift patterns. I notice mine shifts firmer and only downshifts at moderate to heavy pedal movement after a while. After a ECU reset, it will downshift fairly quick with small pedal movements.
equus
QUOTE (sunnyja @ Mar 13 2005, 05:17 PM)
equus.  my bad on the manual part.  sorry and thanks for your patience.
on the auto trans, is there no detailed disclosure of how the learning logic works?
*

That's Ok...as a teacher I have a lot of patience, I NEVER lose my patience with my Technicians when they attend my class. Our pholosophy at Hyundai is to TEACH not "TRAIN"...cause training is done at the Dog Obedience School>>>>cause they are "trained " to "listen" or "watch" for commands...but as Humans I MAKE SURE that we are all LEADERS and not followers....I TEACH my technicians how our systems are designed and operate and it is now upto them to think on their feet to repair these when they have any concerns. Technicians have been followers by tradition and I am doing everything in my powers to make sure that they are Leaders. That said..yes we do teach that ATM logic in our Technical classes that the techs attend on a regular basis. It is a rather complicated topic for me to post it on a forum.
equus
QUOTE (cclngthr @ Mar 13 2005, 06:20 PM)
It determines when to shift based on speed and throttle position, and the history of recent shift patterns. I notice mine shifts firmer and only downshifts at moderate to heavy pedal movement after a while. After a ECU reset, it will downshift fairly quick with small pedal movements.
*

YES...thats correct...cause NOW it is operating on the "factory default" shift pattern for decreased shift shock. It will take another 20 -30 miles before the relearn is completed and then it "will" follow the drivers intended shift learnt pattern.
cclngthr
QUOTE (equus @ Mar 13 2005, 06:52 PM)
YES...thats correct...cause NOW it is operating on the "factory default" shift pattern for decreased shift shock. It will take another 20 -30 miles before the relearn is completed and then it "will" follow the drivers intended shift learnt pattern.
*


I noticed after I put on my intake and exhaust that it began to shift firmer, which I like anyway. I always had installed shift kits in most of the automatics I have had.
sunnyja
thank you both, this is good... a few more posts and maybe this thing will stop being a mystery. have to say i'm surprised a feature like this is not backed up with some sort of driver-oriented writeup. is the logic reset every time you turn off car, or just when the ECU battery disconnected? are there patterns i might stick to in order to "teach it" to favor "hard/quick shifts" into 2nd and 3rd?

i think there are more automatics sold than manuals, which makes me hope other auto trans drivers out there will weigh in on their experience?

thanks!
sunnyja
PS - equus, can you shed light on what are the key changes on the 2006 auto trans and why?
thanks!

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