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> Waxes... Having problems deciding?, Carnauba or sealants?
Bigs
post Dec 23 2005, 01:43 PM
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I ran out of ideas...
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UPDATED info from Paul! Thanks Mang!

Glaze, Carnuba, Sealant

Body shops, Detailers and Enthusiasts could be another name for this post since the definition of these products tend to be used to mean different things. Especially in the body shop mode. Actually in terms of detailing, these three products are very different and are used to achieve not only a varied look but are much different in their function.

Glaze ~ is a oil based product such as 3M IHG and Meguiars #7. They merely fill mild scratches and swirls and add a tremendous amount of DEPTH! to the paint. They do eliminate the marks. Consider this product the"cosmetics" of paint. Administer your coat using a circular motion as you really want to "push" the product into those small ridges of existing scratches and swirls. After you glaze your car, it is like putting on a pair of 3D glasses when observing the final results~~DEPTH!, DEEP DEPTH! However, glazes tend to be rather volitile, in that they will simply evaporate quickly if not sealed. Many cars at shows are quickly given a glaze application before entry to get that last BLING! It could last hours or max a day without being sealed bycarnuubauba. Essentially no protection is given by the glaze. It's use is purely for vanity......There is no protection involved with the use of a glaze. If you wish to add DEPTH! use a glaze.
There is something unique about them as well......the term "skinning" comes to mind.
3M's IHG and Meguiars #7 are oil based glazes and will fill the scratches but not remove them. Glazes in general are a tricky product to use. They have a tendency to "skin" in the removal process. As explained to me by Mike Phillips of Meguiars, think of a bowl of pudding ~ you can take that top layer off, then later it will reappear. Glazes are like this as well. When taking off what you have laid down, take off one layer, another layer of haze will reappear, take that off, then gradually you have taken off the hazing glaze. try not to take all the layers off at once, it will only frustrate you more and possible create some added swirls or scratches sue to the force being administered to the paint, especially black paint.

***UPDATE*** There are new Glazes using an Acrylic Polymer Resin, manufactured by Chemical Guys and they are easy on / easy off. It is a liquid and the application is like a very creamy liquid wax. No hasslel product. It leaves the car looking like an oil based product without the time or effort. There is no "skinning" by product. As a result No HAZING with this product........It really is a beautiful thing.

Carnauba ~ A wax's primary responsibility is to add protection to your vehicle. That is whacarnauba's's function really is. Now there are various formula's some are seemingly more reflective(maybe a clearer form of carnauba(less yellow) and other's seemingly add depth and color to the vehicle. It is also used to seal your polishing and glaze, if used. Eventhough after a wax the car seems to shine, it is really the prep work which the carnauba accentuates that we really see. How long will a carnauba last? Depends on which one you use and even then it is very debatable. Some mention that they lost the "beading action" after four weeks. Well beading occurs only because of surface tension/friction and nothing more. It may or may not be an indicator of the durability of the carnauba. Not to cross lines but I will mention here, there are some synthetic formulated Sealants which are designed to sheet the water and not create any surface tension. So after the first rain do not think it isn't protecting. Carnauba's tend to give a very Warm, enriching glow to the automobile. A deeper, warm shine.

Sealants ~ Many types and varieties. Some very synthetic, others based with carnauba. The most important thing here is a sealant meant to give the longest protection of any LSP product. The wrap on synthetics, if you will, is that they tend to be somewhat cold in appearencee. Similar to a "plastic" being wrapped around the car. Now, many new products have come out using new technologies combining many chemical reaction and these sealants are looking dramatically warm and carnauba like with the added benefit of extended protection. Again as mentioned, some bead water, some do not....so don't be fooleded.....beading water is merely caused by surface friction.

Hopefully this will assist you in your search for the most desireable method. In searching some have found toping sealants with carnuba's to invite interesting possibilities. Again, any more than two to three layers (max) of any product seems to begin reaching a diminished returns on the final result. Two layers sometimes would be valuable purely from a coverage standpoint. Making sure all the areas are fully filled.




I will recommend a few popular combos, then it's for you to decide!


#1 - Klasse All-In-One with P21S

Klasse AIO is a fantastic synthetic product that does everything. Clean, Protects and Polishes. AIO brings out exceptional depth like I have never seen. P21S is carnaubaba wax that will bring out the shine like no other wax. (except Pinnacle but that's over $90 a jar!)
For absolutely fantastic results, I would add 1 coat of AIO (2 if surface is in really bad shape) and 2 of P21S. Keep in mind the P21S will not last long but the AIO is there to protect for 6 months. But P21S is the easier wax that you will ever apply and remove!

#2 - Klasse All-In-One with Poorboys EX Sealant with Carnauba

This is also a combo that is hard to beat. I would say it's very very close to the above selection. EX Sealant is a little harder to apply and remove. It's recommended to let EX Sealant sit for a good 30 minutes. Poorboy's products can also be applied in the sun (with reduced quality IMO). Again, I would add a few layers of each! Also, Poorboy's EX-P Sealant is also available but has no carnauba and gives the same result!

#3 - Klasse All-In-One with Klasse Sealant Glaze
This is a combo that is sure to protect your surface! The SG is harder to work with and have the option of applying and removing right away. The company recommends to let it set on the car for at least 30 minutes or even longer. This combo also give great results and will protect for at least 6 months. This combo is great for light colours!

#4 - Meguiars NXT

This is IMO the best one coat product available in retail stores. It's easy to use and gives great results! Brings out the depth and shine while giving great protection. I also recommend the paste wax over liquid. Personally, I would add a coat of AIO before adding this product!


Again, these are products I recommend. There are tons of great products out there to satisfy the detailer in you! Most products listed above are only available in specialty shops or online.

Proper paint preparationn is also required toachievee great results.

Sorry that was long! laugh.gif


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roydjt
post Dec 23 2005, 05:48 PM
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Great find Marc! I think this is such a good article, I pinned it!

-Roy


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DittoGT
post Dec 23 2005, 08:08 PM
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Bigs --

I'm a Klasse AIO person -- have been since I bought my GT '05 hatch in April. So I'm with you 100% in recommending it.

One thing tho ... just my .02 ... the Klasse AIO has a "cleaner" in it. So when you say to add two coats, that doesn't exactly happen ... the second coat of AIO does what it does to any underlying coat of anything -- cleans it off. Two coats of AIO is generally applied to a FILTHY car -- to "clean" it twice so to speak. But only the second coat really sticks as the first was removed by the second AIO coat. AIO is NOT a layering product (I liken it to running my white towels through two cycles of wash so they are absolutely clean). Make sense?

The Klasse Glaze/sealant is different as it has NO cleaners in it -- this is the stuff you can layer ... some folks have put 10+ layers on a car. sarcasitc-bow.gif

The Klasse Glaze can be a PITA to remove ... but like with everything there's a trick or two that really helps. Spray some Menzerna High Gloss Acrylic Shield on the applicator pad to make the Glaze go on REALLY thin and smoothly, and then spray it on the towel you use to remove the Glaze. Why Menzerna and not some other "cheaper" lubricating QD? Because this particular Menzerna product uses the exact same ACRYLIC in it as the Klasse products, so you're not diluting Klasse with some synthetic polymer. If you stick with Klasse AIO, followed by Klasse Glaze (as many coats as you like - I only do two) with Menzerna as a lubricant and normal QD to use between/after washes, you will have a "pure acrylic" sealant system.

And the beauty of course is that none of these products stains the black trim. As a middle-aged female who feels like I've spent half my life WASHING stuff for the family, I now require maximum ROI when I wash anything!!!

I don't bother with any wax over the top of the Klasse ... I suspect the P21S carnauba wax looks stunning though, and if I was 10 years younger I might go that extra mile for the "wet look" shine. As it is I need three days to recover from the above detailing. wacko.gif

Sharon


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Jonas
post Dec 23 2005, 08:29 PM
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Bigs, you plagiarizer you lol.gif lol.gif

DittoGt, ever try the PoorBoy's line of sealants (EX and EX-P)? I've been using the EX; it's not that hard to remove. Bigs (I believe) has been using it after applying AIO and, well, his pictures can speak for themselves. biggrin.gif


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DittoGT
post Dec 24 2005, 01:42 PM
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PoorBoy's sounds good. Right now, I've got Klasse and that stuff is probably going to last me 4-5 years or more. But I'll keep it in mind.


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elantragt
post Dec 24 2005, 01:52 PM
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The one thing I LOVE about all Poorboy's stuff is that they can be applied in direct sunlight! thumbsup.gif


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Bigs
post Dec 27 2005, 07:54 AM
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Ditto,

Thanks for the comments but I would have to disagree with some of what you said.

First off... You can apply more than one coat of AIO! There are 2 detailing gods F1Guy and Crobar that recommend to do this! If God speaks, you listen! biggrin.gif

Also, AIO on it's own is OK but a topper will give the results! Also, 10+ coats of SG is useless! Max 3 coats for toppers, after that, you get hazing. Not good!

I challenge you in applying 2 coats of AIO then a good 2 coats of a topper such as SG, P21S or PB EX sealant.! Then I would like you to comment! Beleive me, I understand the properties of AIO, that's why I posted this!

Thanks to Richard and Paul for the knowledge I have gained in the last 2 years! thumbsup.gif

OH and people, a little Klasse goes a long way! smile.gif


Mitch,

Have you tried PB's in the sun? You forgot to mention all PB products smell great! laugh.gif


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DittoGT
post Dec 27 2005, 02:22 PM
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Hey Bigs -- like everything in life, I guess it depends on "where" you stumble over your experts at first. My experts were from a different location from the club is all.

The "don't bother layering AIO cuz you can't" experts I read were from properautocare.com/klassefaq.html:

"Is there any value in applying two coats of All-In-One?

Only if you're working on an older car with a very dull or oxidized finish. All-In-One will not layer on top of itself. In effect, if you apply two coats, you are cleaning the surface twice. This is not required on most vehicles but may improve surface gloss on older, neglected paint finishes. On most vehicles, if you have the time to apply two coats, apply one coat of All-In-One and then a top coat of High Gloss Sealant Glaze."

The "layer as much as you please the Klasse Glaze/Sealant" was from an interview with a Klasse USA rep at properautocare.com/inwiklusa.html:

Q. I know you can layer multiple coats of HGSG. Can you put on too many coats?

A. Not really. HGSG will not yellow or discolor with multiple applications. Black, red and dark color vehicles will actually look better with additional coats of HGSG. Always start with one coat of All-In-One and one coat of HGSG. The next time you wash your car, if you have the time, apply another coat of HGSG. Apply additional coats whenever you desire (and then somewhere on the site enthusiasts who did 10 or so layers). clapsmiley.gif

So like I said -- whichever "expert" you stumble upon first is often the one you go with. I have followed them with great results -- and because we've had so much rain lately, may wash my car this week and put on my third layer of Glaze.

Your disagreement is not really with me ... it's between two sets of "experts." I'm open to revision on all matters from "experts" as my dad just got THREE different diagnoses from orthopedic specialists on his hip pain. wacko.gif

LONG LIVE THE EXPERTS !!! whistle.gif

Sharon


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Bigs
post Dec 27 2005, 02:32 PM
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I ran out of ideas...
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Wow Sharon interesting find! thumbsup.gif

I don't recommend 2 coats of AIO all the time! After a harsh winter, that's basically it! So yes, that theory they give is true! It just cleans deeper the second time and you get the rest that might have been missed the first time! smile.gif

10 coats of SG? Whoa... To me, that's a little much but to each his own I guess... smile.gif That guy must have good arms! laugh.gif Unless he has a PC like I do! tongue.gif

Maybe SG has a better results if you layer as much as he did. I know carnauba based waxes cannot be layerd as much as it may start to haze... But in my experience, there is only so many layers that can be added, the rest is just a waste...


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DittoGT
post Dec 27 2005, 02:51 PM
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I can't imagine that degree of layering either! The ONLY thing that ever goes through my mind with Klasse Glaze layering is related to "maybe" putting on enough layers to somehow reduce paint chipping a tad from these microscopic (ho ho) thingies that hit our lousy (thin) paint. Is "thicker" acrylic gonna help? I don't know, but at this point it's all I can afford (no $$$ here for extra clearcoat, etc.). If that 3M see-through stuff works, maybe you can put on enough Glaze layers to sort of mimic the see-through stuff?

BTW Bigs -- while you're on that site (or if you go back) ... Check out this "foam" claying product: http://www.properautocare.com/dispcl.html

I used it about a month ago on my dad's Civic -- it's GLORIOUS!!! I had only used traditional clay bars twice before and with great results ... but it nearly did me in both times (remember I'm a middle-aged old bag - hehehe) .. but THIS stuff is JUST AS GOOD and really/truly was 1/3 the time (at least for me) to do. I'd sure like some opinions tho from others.

Sharon


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Bigs
post Dec 28 2005, 07:28 AM
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I ran out of ideas...
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Sharon,

I know what you mean about the thin paint. angry-hitselfonhead.gif

As for layering SG, it won't even come close to 3M. Even with 40 coats. Remember only a small amount actually sticks to the surface. The rest is removed! That's why when I say a little Klasse goes a long way! smile.gif Actually, with any products, you should apply only a thin layer.

Wow, the clay if not mistaking is in the foam... What you scrub with is a sponge. The only thing I would be scared of is the sponge as it might scratch you paint when it gathers all that crap in it, unless you clean it after each small section... With clay, you can fold it and keep going... I would be quite interested in seing that product or even trying it!

Anyways it's quite interesting! thumbsup.gif That's a great find and you should add it to product reviews section with your thoughts!! I like the tips they give! The baggie test and it doesn't remove swirls! smile.gif But never remove in circular motions, that will introduce swirls.


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Bigs
post Jan 5 2006, 10:20 AM
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I ran out of ideas...
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Poorboy's World is coming out with a new product hopefully this spring! It might sound funny but I'm excited! I have seen the result of the beta testing and it looks fantastic!

PwS - Poorboy's Polish with Sealant! This is to compete with AIO! Seen the results and I'm quite impressed! I will definitely update my kit with one of these when it becomes available!! Supposed to smell like oranges! smile.gif


LS - Poorboy's Leather Stuff! It's new and available, it Cleans, Conditions and Protects! I will definitely have to get one of these! It does a great job and it smells wonderful!

All poorboy's products have great smell and they are great to work with!


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