This forum is now officially closed and is a read-only archive
ElantraClub - for all generations

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Amazon · Advance Auto · Newegg · Ebay 
 Forum Rules Overview
 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Autocross Setups, Read first post before posting
oiml8
post Jul 10 2006, 05:01 PM
Post #1 | Print


Mod Emeritus
Group Icon
Group: Lifetimer
Posts: 3,769
Posts Per Day: 0.79
Thanks Received: 4
Trader Stats: 1 (100%)
Joined: 11-January 05
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Member No.: 6
Mood: Accomplished


After talking with J-Son at the 7-9-2006 race at the Honeywell plant in Fostoria, Ohio he made a suggestion that we start posting our vehicle setup's for each race and how we did and what we think about the setup and what we would or might do differently.

What I want to do is have a standard set of questions that are answered in each post. This way we can be systematic about the information we provide each other and help us all interpret it. Also each post should contain as much info about the track, conditions, driver condition (i.e. tired, psyched out, on top of your game, etc...).

In addition, I do not want to have ANY unnecessary posts in this thread. All questions or replies should be specific in nature and have a direct reference to the setup of the car and questions or suggestions about it. Try to think out your questions as much as possible and include as many of them in a single post as possible. In answering replies please answer as many of the questions as possible.

If you choose to participate in this thread you must follow the rules I have laid out. It can be very informative and very useful and is intended to be a resource not a chat room. I will delete posts that do not meet the criteria.

Below are the questions that should be answered. If you think some should be added or deleted please PM me right away. I think we should try to answer them numerically as they appear below so they can be easily referenced when reading your narrative. You can copy and paste the questions into your post and answer them. Most of the questions could be copy and pasted after each race since things like 'coilovers' will remain the same. However make sure you notate any changes, i.e. ride height.

The Questions

The Car

1. Car year
2. Model (sedan/hatch, gls/gt or equivelant)
3. Tire size, model, pressure, weight (if known)
4. Wheel size, weight
5. Strut/Spring combo, coilover type
6. Ride Height
7. Coilover settings
8. Camber/Toe settings front/rear
9. Swaybar(s), bushings
10. Motor mounts
11. Transmission and modifications
12. Clutch/Flywheel
13. Engine modifications
14. Any other pertinent info, i.e. damage sensors, CEL, etc...

The Track

1. Size/layout (# of slaloms, hairpins, straightline braking, etc...)
2. Surface Type (concrete, ashphalt/sealed,not sealed/smooth vs bumpy, etc...)
3. Surface conditions (wet/dry, dirty/clean, cold/hot, etc...)

The Run

1. Class
2. Heat run in
3. One or two drivers
4. Number of runs
5. Tire Temperatures
6. Did you cool the tires between each run
7. Lap times for your class (at least from yours to faster)
8. Each of your lap times
9. Include and any fun runs and their times

Observations, Impressions, and Conclusions

Tell what you think and how you felt about the runs. Be as specific as possible about each lap and what changes you made to the car from run to run. Speculate on what changes you might make for the next race and why.


--------------------

"Space reserved for pithy quote"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LateAPXR
post Jul 10 2006, 06:48 PM
Post #2 | Print


Post Maniac
Group Icon
Group: Members
Posts: 1,321
Posts Per Day: 0.29
Thanks Received: 0
Trader Stats: 0 (0%)
Joined: 18-August 05
From: Indianapolis, IN
Member No.: 1,270
Mood: Accomplished


The Car

1. 2005
2. GLS Hatch
3. Stock Michelin Allseasons (195/60/R15), 36psi F / 40psi R (COLD)
4. 15"x5.5"
5. Ksport Kontrol Pro Coilovers
6. 23 3/4" all around
7. Front: full soft, Rear: +1 turn from soft
8.Front: -1.8deg, Rear: -1.2deg, Toe: unknown (alignment off)
9. Front: Stock, Rear: 19mm Tiburon GT, Stock Bushings
10. Stock Motor Mounts
11. BSE SS Clutch Line, TWM Short Shift (ALU base & linkage bushings)
12. Stock Clutch/Flywheel
13. Engine modifications: CAI
14. Damaged LF wheel speed sensor, caused engine to no longer "rev hang" and seemed a bit "peppier" & ABS/TCS lights + CEL.
15. Brake Condition: Stock fluid w/ 14k semi-hard miles on it, mushy pedal so fluid most likely aerated. Fresh OEM rotors (changed a few days earlier) using Stock OEM pads and lines all around. NO ABS
16. Traction Control: installed but unavailable
17. A/C: turned off

The Track

1. Size/layout: 1 slalom, 1 hard hairpin, 1 med hairpin, 1 sweeper, 1 chicane, 1 straight to 80deg right hander.
2. Surface Type: Sealed Asphalt with 1 concrete strip (acted as a jump)
3. Surface conditions: Very slippery..not too much gravel/dust. 80deg air temp (roughly), overcast, dry

The Run

1. Class: STS
2. Heat: 4 of 4
3. Drivers: 1
4. Number of runs: 4
5. Tire Temperatures: unknown
6. Did you cool the tires between each run: NO
7. Lap times for your class: 60 secs to 45 secs
8. No fun runs

Observations, Impressions, and Conclusions
Tires do not allow for me to push the car further, they just cannot provide enough grip. The suspension is quite capable but is thusly limited by the tires ability to grip. In the slalom the rear end followed the front QUITE nicely, almost felt as if I was moving the car "by moving my hips" if you know what I mean. Slalom felt perfect.

Front tires scrubbed quite a bit in nearly all turns except for the slaloms. Concrete jump HIGHLY unsettling to the car most likely due to the higher rear dampening setting. However, no matter what it is unsettling.


--------------------

A proud member of the club.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ishtar
post Jul 10 2006, 08:36 PM
Post #3 | Print


Educated Fool
Group Icon
Group: Lifetimer
Posts: 4,895
Posts Per Day: 1.08
Thanks Received: 1
Trader Stats: 1 (100%)
Joined: 2-October 05
From: Newark, Ohio
Member No.: 1,461
Mood: Accomplished


The Car

1. 2005 Elantra
2. GT Hatch
3. Kumho Ecsta AST 205/45/17 45 PSI up front, 32 PSI in rear
4. 17"x7", reported 15.5lbs
5. H&R Springs, Tiburon GT Struts
6. 1.5" up front, 1.3" rear
7. N/A
8. Max stock negative camber, 1/32" Toe Out.
9. Tibby 19.2mm Sway bar, stock bushings
10. Stock motor mounts
11. Automatic Transmission, Aux. Transmission Cooler
12. N/A
13. Easy intake Mod, Borla Turbo XS Muffler
14. Transmission cooler too effective, causing ECU to shift late and hold the rev line.

The Track

Same as above post.

The Run

1. STS
2. 4
3. One Driver
4. 4 Runs, 1 DNF
5. No idea.
6. No.
7. 56.xxx seconds personal, LateAPXR already reported faster runs in post.
8. N/A

Observations, Impressions, and Conclusions

- All season rubber is no good, nor is Autotragic transmission.
- Body roll was well controlled, Suspension felt "just right" as a mix of both street and AutoX driving.


--------------------


Come mothers and fathers / Throughout the land
And don't criticize / What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters / Are beyond your command
Your old road is / Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one / If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
oiml8
post Jul 10 2006, 09:57 PM
Post #4 | Print


Mod Emeritus
Group Icon
Group: Lifetimer
Posts: 3,769
Posts Per Day: 0.79
Thanks Received: 4
Trader Stats: 1 (100%)
Joined: 11-January 05
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Member No.: 6
Mood: Accomplished


The Car

1. Car year - 2003
2. Model - sedan/gt
3. Tire size, model, pressure, weight - 205/50/15 Azenis Sport/50 cold - 55 hot front/40 cold rear
4. Wheel size, weight - 15 x 6.5/11 lb
5. Strut/Spring combo, coilover type - KSport (Tiburon)
6. Ride Height - From ground to bottom of fender lip/ 22.5 front - 22.25 rear This should be standardized as fender to ground or wheel center
7. Coilover settings - Preload 1/2" past seated/Adjusted all the way soft front/rear
8. Camber/Toe settings front/rear - approx 2 degrees rear/Approx 4 degrees front
9. Swaybar(s), bushings - Tib swaybar/Greasable front and rear poly
10. Motor mounts - Window weld filled
11. Transmission and modifications - 5 Speed/Valve-ectomy/Solid shifter bushings
12. Clutch/Flywheel - OE Valvo/OE Flywheel
13. Engine modifications - Header/Exhaust/Underdrive Pulley/OBX Prelude CF SRI/NGK V-Power Plugs/Magnacore Wires
14. Any other pertinent info, i.e. damage sensors, CEL, etc... - None

The Track

1. Size/layout - 1 slalom, 1 hard hairpin, 1 med hairpin, 1 sweeper, 1 chicane, 1 straight to 80deg right hander.
2. Surface Type - Sealed Asphalt with 1 concrete strip (acted as a jump)
3. Surface conditions - Clean/Dry/Warm/Sticky/Some small bumps that disrupted the front wheels

The Run

1. Class - STS
2. Heat run in - 4 of 4
3. One or two drivers - 2
4. Number of runs - 4
5. Tire Temperatures - unknown
6. Did you cool the tires between each run - after last two laps
7. Lap times for your class (at least from yours to faster) 60-45 sec
8. Include and any fun runs and their times

Observations, Impressions, and Conclusions

I found the track to be sticky. Not very sticky but I never felt like it was 'greasy'. My car stuck to the pavement less after lap one because I think the tires got to hot from running 2 laps a heat. After lap 2 and 3 I doused the tires with water from water bottles and that worked very well. I have one of those weed sprayer containers for water but I didn't think of bringing it this time.

I think that my rear neg camber is too much. I need to put my camber bolts back in and get it back to zero. I did not feel like the car would rotate around enough. I'd like to set it back to zero and then work with tire pressures. That is controlable...at the track.

I raced early in the season with 38psi in the front and 32 in the rear. Last race in Ypsilanti I jacked them up to 50 in the front and 40 in the rear (cold). It did a lot better. I started of with that for this race and after the second lap I reduced the pressure from 55 (hot. The pressure rises with temp) to 50. It did not handle as well. For the 4th lap I put them back up to 55 (hot) and that felt right.

I think the wheel spacers helped. I did not feel any ill effects from them so I think they could only, therefore, help.

I also was running with 2/3's of a tank of gas. My wife took my car on Wednesday and had to put gas in it and she didn't think about the race. Normally I have about 1/4 a tank. That is a difference of about 50lbs. Not huge but significant I think.

After looking at my video in the hard right hand sweeper I think I had a lot of body roll relative to the speed of the corner. I could compensate for that with increasing the preload but you can't really do that in grid. So maybe adjusting the coilovers to more firm would have helped.

I'm not sure but I think I am going to raise my car abour 1/2". I think it is too low. It throws of the suspension geometry of the lower control arms. Plus that is disrupted, allbeit minimally, by the wheel spacers. I think I will also increase the preload on the fronts. However I am not going to do any of that until after the Oscoda race (I don't think, since my car will remain on the trailor until then).

My thoughts about why and how I got beat by that guy driving the Scion is this;

He's a better driver. If everyone says he's the one to beat then he must be good. Being fast means driving the entire course on the razors edge. The only way to find that edge is to push it. Pushing it means that you may loose control at times. But if you never loose control, you don't know where the line between in and out of control is. Additionally, you must know where your car is fastest in relation to it's ability to put the power to the ground. Generally the tightest line is fastest. But this was not the case on this track in my car. I ran what I thought was a really fast time and my lines were tight. I drove the car extremely well through the entire course. When I crossed the finish I thought for sure I had a great time. I was 1/2 second slower than my prior lap. I think he knows his car.


--------------------

"Space reserved for pithy quote"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
oiml8
post Jul 11 2006, 09:40 AM
Post #5 | Print


Mod Emeritus
Group Icon
Group: Lifetimer
Posts: 3,769
Posts Per Day: 0.79
Thanks Received: 4
Trader Stats: 1 (100%)
Joined: 11-January 05
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Member No.: 6
Mood: Accomplished


I'm adding to the The Run section all your lap times.

Putting in all the info will probably require some notes to be taken at the track. Especially for things like tire pressure, tire temps, track layout, lap times, etc...


--------------------

"Space reserved for pithy quote"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
oiml8
post Jul 17 2006, 10:11 AM
Post #6 | Print


Mod Emeritus
Group Icon
Group: Lifetimer
Posts: 3,769
Posts Per Day: 0.79
Thanks Received: 4
Trader Stats: 1 (100%)
Joined: 11-January 05
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Member No.: 6
Mood: Accomplished


The Car

1. Car year - 2003
2. Model - sedan/gt
3. Tire size, model, pressure, weight - 205/50/15 Azenis Sport/50 cold - 55 hot front/40 cold rear
4. Wheel size, weight - 15 x 6.5/11 lb
5. Strut/Spring combo, coilover type - KSport (Tiburon)
6. Ride Height - From ground to bottom of fender lip/ 22.5 front - 22.25 rear
7. Coilover settings - Preload 1/2" past seated/Adjusted half hard in front/ all soft in rear
8. Camber/Toe settings front/rear - approx 2 degrees rear-0 toe/Approx -7 degrees front camber - 1/8" toe in
9. Swaybar(s), bushings - Tib swaybar/Greasable front and rear poly
10. Motor mounts - Window weld filled
11. Transmission and modifications - 5 Speed/Valve-ectomy/Solid shifter bushings
12. Clutch/Flywheel - OE Valvo/OE Flywheel
13. Engine modifications - Header/Exhaust/Underdrive Pulley/OBX Prelude CF SRI/NGK V-Power Plugs/Magnacore Wires
14. Any other pertinent info, i.e. damage sensors, CEL, etc... - None

The Track

1. Size/layout - 3 hairpins, 1 optional 4 cone slalom, 2 non-optional 3 cone slaloms, 3 gradual constant radius "straight aways".
2. Surface Type - Airport concrete (mildly brushed)
3. Surface conditions - Clean/Dry/Warm/Sticky/Smooth.

The Run

1. Class - STS
2. Heat run in - 3 of 4
3. One or two drivers - 1
4. Number of runs - 9
5. Tire Temperatures - See narrative
6. Did you cool the tires between each run - every run
7. Lap times for your class (at least from yours to faster) 65-55 sec
8. Include and any fun runs and their times

Observations, Impressions, and Conclusions

We ran 5 runs on Sat and 4 runs on Sun. We ran the course one way the first day and backwards the second. It was the same layout for each.

The air temp in grid was 110 degrees on Sat. It was 95 degrees on Sun.

I changed my front camber to max negative. This caused me to have a slight toe in. I cannot get more toe out that I had. The tierods are threaded all the way in.

I measured tire temps after eash run. This is a must do IMO. You have to knowyour tire temps in order to know if you have the right tire pressure. Without it you are just guessing and that is not a very good way to have consistant runs.

My tires temps had a range from one side to the other mostly due to the end of the course. On day 1 it ended after a pretty hard right hand turn. On day 2 it ended after a pretty hard left hand turn. The outside of the outside tires were as hot as 144 degrees F. The inside of the outside tire was as hot as 134 degrees F. The center of the outside tire was as high as 137 degrees F.

The outside of the inside tire was as high as 120 degrees F. The inside of the inside tire was as high as 125 degrees F. The center of the inside tire was as high as 123 degrees F.

The highest temps occured on the first day. On day two the tires were about 10 degrees cooler. This had a lot to do with surface temps I believe.

Measuring the temps showed me two things. One I already said in that you know if you need to add air or take it away. If the center of the tread is hotter that the edges then you have too much air pressure and are loosing contact patch. If the center is cooler than the coolest side of the tire then it is under-inflated. The second thing is that on concrete the Azenis Sport rt-215's get over-heated. It seems they are happiest at around 100 degrees. The surface temps of the concrete was higher than that. I have not seen ideal tire temps for the rt-615 but I believe I remember hearing that they tolerate temps about 10 degrees F higher. That is still not quiet high enough for our car IMO.

A good option might be to go with the Kumho MX. They are much better when they are hot. You actually may not need to cool them off between runs because they are better hot. Another option is to go with V rated tires. You can have them as long as they have a 140 wear rating.

Our car is a heavy pig especially in front. We need to run 225 width tires and they need to have high temp tolerances. The Azenis sports are great tires and much better than any summer performance tire (except maybe the BFG G-force KD) but they are not up to the task on our car. Ultimately you cannot compete in our car without 225 width tires.

Another benefit from 225 width tires is that you need less neg camber. At max neg the tire temps were what would be considered perfect. The inside out the inside tire was hotter than the outside and the center was in between. Also, any more neg camber will potentially seriously degrade straightline braking since the tire have less contact when going straight.

Toe in maybe be good. Not a lot. Not much more than oe. It turned in a lot better. It held the line and did not want to come out. With toe out the car turned in nicely and wanted to pull out of the turn. It was remarkably different. I think better.

I want to raise my car about 1/2 inch. I think it is too low and may be throwing off the steering geometery. Not a lot but maybe enough. I think it is also causing a lot of stress on the the car. It just squeeks and clunks and groans too much. I don't know exactly where the sounds are coming from but I noticed a lot more of them when I went an inch lower.

Run Times

Day 1

1. 60.595
2. 61.033
3. 60.495
4. 59.930
5. 58.998

Day 2

1. 60.836
2. DNF
3. 59.960
4. 58.913


--------------------

"Space reserved for pithy quote"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
J-son
post Jul 17 2006, 02:50 PM
Post #7 | Print


Poster Pro
Group Icon
Group: Members
Posts: 667
Posts Per Day: 0.14
Thanks Received: 0
Trader Stats: 0 (0%)
Joined: 28-March 05
From: Fort Wayne, In
Member No.: 649
Mood: Drained


I like the run times Very nice addition to the thread.

How did you place amoungst the faster times?


--------------------

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bobzilla
post Aug 14 2006, 01:13 PM
Post #8 | Print


Proud GLT Owner
Group Icon
Group: Lifetimer
Posts: 21,140
Posts Per Day: 4.47
Thanks Received: 633
Trader Stats: 3 (100%)
Joined: 11-March 05
From: Brownsburg, IN
Member No.: 532
Mood: Hyper


OK, Tim told me to. . .

The Car

1. 02 'lantra
2. GLS
3. 205/55/16 Kumho KH16 A/S touring
4. 16x6 Sonata Aluminum
5. stock struts (59k miles) and 02 GT Hatch springs
6. 4x4 look alike
7. N/A
8. Stock
9. Rear tib, stock bushings
10. Motor mounts OE
11. SHIFTER bushings
12. Clutch/Flywheel stock
13. Engine modifications CAI, muffler.
14. N/A


The Run

1. STS
2. Heat 2
3. One drivers
4. Number of runs 6
5. Tire Temperatures HOT
6. Did you cool the tires between each run? NO
7. Lap times for your class (at least from yours to faster) 9-10 seconds
8. lap times: 67.12 61.513, 60.263, 59.7xx, 59.543, 59.045

Over all, for a comfy DD I think it was fine. Lots of initial understeer, usually because I was carrying to much speed into the corners. But With a quick throttle lift or a little trail-braking I could get the back of the car to rotate and get right back onto the gas. Tires are NOT good for this. Add in the 4x4 ride height and this isn't the best option for an auto crosser. BUT it was the best riding car home! tongue.gif


--------------------

Founding Member of the Indiana Chapter of the Teeny Weeny Club for Secure Adult Males

"Drag racing is for fast cars, and autocrossing is for fast drivers" -Toecutter
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 user(s) are reading this topic (1 guests and 0 anonymous Users)
0 Members:


Collapse

> Similar Topics

  Topic Replies Topic Starter Views Last Action
No New Posts Topic has attachmentsAutocrossed today with an 03 GT...
lulz
9 RPW00Mirage 1,965 24th August 2015 - 09:02 PM
Last post by: J2/RD
No New Posts Autocross
18 ElMurcielago 3,869 26th May 2015 - 04:02 PM
Last post by: Bobzilla
No New Posts Autocross Hickory NC March 30th 2013
5 J2/RD 2,238 6th March 2013 - 12:59 PM
Last post by: slowgls
No New Posts Autocrossing... 3-cone slaloms
Ever hit the middle cone to be faster?
13 SWortham 3,000 21st August 2007 - 04:29 PM
Last post by: Toecutter
No New Posts Autocross at La Grave Field in my STI (8/5/2007)
3 SWortham 1,038 7th August 2007 - 10:45 AM
Last post by: SWortham



 



RSS 2017 The Hyundai Elantra Club    
Time is now: 21st February 2018 - 03:58 AM
Elantra Club is not affiliated in any way with Hyundai Motor America