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ElantraClub - For Elantra Owners and Enthusiasts _ Power Zone _ 07 coldair intake
Posted by: rah4223 Jan 28 2008, 02:08 PM
Any one with a 07 try the cold air intake yet? I have one but are not sure if it is safe to install.Inside the intake box there is a radiator for some thing i believe is the ecu.the question beggs if I remove the box to install the cold air unit will the ecu over heat?Is the 07 the only model to have this issue?
Posted by: cclngthr Jan 28 2008, 03:49 PM
I tried a 3 inch CAI, but it threw a lean code, but a smaller diameter tube may not lean the mixture that much.
Yes, the airbox air does cool the ECU. Hyundai designed it in that way for a reason. Will it overheat the ECU? Personally, I chose to keep the airbox stock, but install a panel filter. I was not going to risk damaging the ECU (an expensive item) and have trouble down the road.
Posted by: Ishtar Jan 28 2008, 04:31 PM
Shouldn't cause any harm period.
Posted by: cobas Jan 28 2008, 05:19 PM
Why are you so sure? The ECU's heatsink cooled by lots ambient air at maybe 30-40C vs under-hood temperatures of 50-60C or more with close to zero air flow... and it's an expensive item to replace! Unless Hyundai did that unnecessary change only to make us question the wisdom of CAI's... that would be sneaky... maybe there's an ECU temperature sensor to detect use of a CAI... maybe it all explodes above 50C!! AaAAAah!! I dunno man...I dunno
Posted by: cclngthr Jan 28 2008, 06:01 PM
There is a 4-5 page thread on EXD about the Incus SRI and the ECU cooling issue.
Hyundai did place the ECU next to the open port for a reason. I'm assuming it is there to cool the ECU. Also, the ECU mount bracket also holds the stock airbox. It would look funny if a CAI were on there and this big bracket holding the ECU is still there.
Posted by: fgummett Jan 28 2008, 07:35 PM
I'm not sure any of us have enough experience of the HD to say this with such certainty.
Posted by: cclngthr Jan 28 2008, 07:43 PM
Exactly. I'm not going to chance it.
Posted by: Frick Jan 28 2008, 08:52 PM
Since the original poster is in Syracuse NY, I thinking it probably wouldn't be a problem. There are few days in the summer there that it gets that hot. It the OP had lived in say Phoenix, I would think that would probably be a much bigger issue.
But as Cclngthr said, until we know more you are gambling with a very expensive, and must have piece of equipment.
Posted by: cclngthr Jan 28 2008, 09:25 PM
But as Cclngthr said, until we know more you are gambling with a very expensive, and must have piece of equipment.
That piece of equipment does run/monitor more than the engine on the car. It also is something I don't want to recommend yet. I have the HD, and still don't want to mess with something that controls things that are critical.
Posted by: rah4223 Jan 29 2008, 12:11 AM
I am not willing to chance it.I will not use the cai untill I talk to to the dealer ship.the only way I am going to chance it is if the dealer will warranty the ecu and I do not believe they will.this car is a pain to mod!
Posted by: Ishtar Jan 29 2008, 12:53 AM
It's a Hyundai... by its very nature it's a pain to mod (sad but true)
Posted by: Bobzilla Jan 29 2008, 09:51 AM
*SIGH* . . .what happened to all of our Pioneers? THe ones that took the chances to find out what worked? It seems people just want it on a silver platter but don't understand the sacrifices people like Jay, Ford and the like did to make it happen so long ago.
Basically, until some one tries it out, we won't know. Period. Colin and his doom&gloom theories about how cars are to never be touched are way to the left, while Joe's carefree "it'll be fine" attitude is to the right. The real answer is probably inbetween.
Posted by: mtlelantra Jan 29 2008, 12:23 PM
Yes, the airbox air does cool the ECU. Hyundai designed it in that way for a reason.
So...... when you installed the CAI, 1) how did you route it? and 2) what did you do with the stock box/ECU??? ??? ???
Posted by: cclngthr Jan 29 2008, 06:30 PM
The ECU can't be moved due to the wiring harness being there and it is tough to reroute without undoing a shitload of stuff. The CAI I tried was an older version that had the filter in between the radiator and the transmission, like the older LC Accent CAI's. The stock airbox can be removed, but the bracket remains in place.
I reinstalled the stock airbox.
Basically, until some one tries it out, we won't know. Period. Colin and his doom&gloom theories about how cars are to never be touched are way to the left, while Joe's carefree "it'll be fine" attitude is to the right. The real answer is probably inbetween.
Whether you like it or not, cars are programmed differently than older cars, mainly due to the tightening emission controls. In 2005 and 2007, cars have to emit less HC and CO/CO2. The way manufacturers did this is to reduce the adaptability parameters the ECU because the emission systems (mainly due to cost) are not equipped to handle much exhaust emissions beyond factory.
Are you willing to risk damaging the ECU with something stupid as that? Hyundai designed the airbox to cool the ECU for a reason. They did not do it for shits and giggles.
It is not doom and gloom. It is basic common sense.
Posted by: mtlelantra Jan 29 2008, 08:34 PM
So presumably if you had some narrower tubing that fit that way and just leave the stock airbox in place along with some of the stock tubing to force air through the box to cool the ECU then you might find a winner setup...
Posted by: popeye Jan 29 2008, 08:47 PM
Presumably you could cool it with anything that did the job... Peltier device, http://www.thermaltake.com/product/Cooler/TMG/tmgindex.asp, but it will require some serious consideration and how much is one to gain in this adventure for the cost?
Posted by: cclngthr Jan 29 2008, 09:06 PM
Actually, the stock box has close to the same amount of airflow as a cone filter if the box contains a K&N filter. The HD has a redesigned intake system where air comes in quicker and isn't hampered by a resonator that restricts airflow. The XD has a resonator that air must go through before hitting the stock airbox. Since it is a ram air system, airflow is not restricted like a typical standard factory intake. It already is a cold air intake system; and the only thing that you would gain is a bunch of underhood noise.
The 3 inch CAI does work on the XD though.
It would take a larger shroud and enough cool air to be effective, and with underhood temps reaching 190+ degrees, cooling the ECU would be harder without some kind of tubing so the air temperature would be cool enough actually cool the computer. Most computer fans would not have the volume of air to sufficiently cool the larger computer used in a car. Most PC CPU's are about the size of a 2 inch speaker, and the ECU is 5x7 inches by 1.5 inches deep.
Posted by: CRF450Jim Mar 6 2008, 08:40 PM
I have had the Apollo CAI installed on my 08Elantra since Dec07 and for 7,000km without any issues. 
Its been taken off and put back on twice as I have taken it to the dealer for oil changes (45min to take off) … dealer provides oil changes for life. 
The sound is similar to stock except at WOT where it sounds great even though it is a lot louder. I have noticed about a 4% milage benefit. My seat of the pants dyno show better torque. 
WRT ECU overheating … manufacturers build to worst case scenario … that's why we are able to do mods that increase performance but really do not impact reliability in the environment we use the car. There would have to be really high ambient temperature for the ECU to fail with this mod. The ECU box heat sink is very large and the ECU does not generate that much heat.
I intend to keep using this CAI … love the sound and performance … not a big risk. 
Posted by: mtlelantra Mar 6 2008, 09:41 PM
Awesome- way to go!
Posted by: cclngthr Mar 6 2008, 09:47 PM
Its been taken off and put back on twice as I have taken it to the dealer for oil changes (45min to take off) … dealer provides oil changes for life. The sound is similar to stock except at WOT where it sounds great even though it is a lot louder. I have noticed about a 4% milage benefit. My seat of the pants dyno show better torque.
WRT ECU overheating … manufacturers build to worst case scenario … that's why we are able to do mods that increase performance but really do not impact reliability in the environment we use the car. There would have to be really high ambient temperature for the ECU to fail with this mod. The ECU box heat sink is very large and the ECU does not generate that much heat.
I intend to keep using this CAI … love the sound and performance … not a big risk.
Without an actual dyno, there is no telling what the increase would be.
A flow test on the aftermarket setup vs the OEM setup should show if it is worth the money for the aftermarket setup. If there is little difference in flow rate I would not bother changing it. I do think the HD stock system is designed much better than the older Elantras and the new setup should be equal to the aftermarket if the panel filter was used.
Manufacturers design the system for a reason. Hyundai designed the OE air to cool the computer not just because of ambient temps, but also underhood temps, which can get 200 degrees or better. Computer equipment does not do well with that kind of temperature, even external temperature. The heatsink needs to be cooler than the internal temperature to be effective. 195-200 degrees is not cool enough to keep the computer happy. It actually heats it up instead.
Posted by: CRF450Jim Mar 7 2008, 04:25 PM
A flow test on the aftermarket setup vs the OEM setup should show if it is worth the money for the aftermarket setup. If there is little difference in flow rate I would not bother changing it. I do think the HD stock system is designed much better than the older Elantras and the new setup should be equal to the aftermarket if the panel filter was used.
Manufacturers design the system for a reason. Hyundai designed the OE air to cool the computer not just because of ambient temps, but also underhood temps, which can get 200 degrees or better. Computer equipment does not do well with that kind of temperature, even external temperature. The heatsink needs to be cooler than the internal temperature to be effective. 195-200 degrees is not cool enough to keep the computer happy. It actually heats it up instead.
I would agree that without an actual dyno there is no telling what the increase would be. In a similar fashion, without a measure of actual flow rate, there is no telling what the flow rate would be compared to the OEM setup or the OEM setup with a K&N panel ... even if you think that the HD stock system is designed much better. Its kind of like my "seat of the pants dyno" guesstimate ... both are guesstimates.
That being said, here are many good "dyno measured" examples (with a variety of motors) about the proven performance benefits of CAI vs stock intake. I have not seen any that show the flow rate of the stock intake is similar to that of aftermarket CAI's. The other benefit with this CAI is that it will not be the weak link in delivering performance as other mods are installed.
WRT ambiant temp ... the steady state under the hood temp will be inflenced by the heat output from the motor/xmission as well as the ambiant air. In addition, hotter ambiant air tends to make the motor/xmission create even more heat.
ECU's have protection via an internal temp thermal ... this means that the ECU with shut down to protect itself should its internal temp be out of range. That being said, ECU's can handle a significant amount of heat. The following has been taken from a generic ECU spec sheet that shows just how wide of a temp range is acceptable ...
Parameter Data Length:
Data Type:
Bit Resolution:
Maximum Range:
ECU's do not contain state of the art electronics such as todays hi speed processors that can only handle 70 degrees F of ambiant temp. Instead, the ECU's contain IC's that are more heavy duty in nature. In fact, the number of IC's used to measure very hot spots around motors have increased dramatically ... this is due to adoption of the SI2C sensor interface standard. These sensors (read IC chips) can play in the exhaust system where the temp is in the very hot 400C or 750F range.
However, most under hood temp seldom get beyond the 150F mark. Chk out this link for under hood temp with a Honda Civic Sir that has a modifed from preformance motor from Australia with max underhood temp of only 60C or 140F in their summer ...
http://www.teirney.net/civic/TemperatureReadings.htm
So, seeing that;
1) There is a lot of data out there that confirms performance benefits in a variety of motors using a CAI over stock and none that confirms air flow from stock air intakes come close to that of aftermarket
2) knowing that the ECU can handle a lot of heat and will thermal out first before it becomes throwaway
3) knowing that the under the hood temp of my low performance elantra, in most ambiant temp, is not going to overheat the ECU
... it does make sense for some of us to spend $120 to add some performance and sound while getting better gas milage ... if only we could keep our foot out of it!
... +7,000km and still going with my ECU surviving under the hood temperatures
Posted by: cclngthr Mar 7 2008, 07:31 PM
ECU's have protection via an internal temp thermal ... this means that the ECU with shut down to protect itself should its internal temp be out of range. That being said, ECU's can handle a significant amount of heat. The following has been taken from a generic ECU spec sheet that shows just how wide of a temp range is acceptable ...
Parameter Data Length:
Data Type:
Bit Resolution:
Maximum Range:
ECU's do not contain state of the art electronics such as todays hi speed processors that can only handle 70 degrees F of ambiant temp. Instead, the ECU's contain IC's that are more heavy duty in nature. In fact, the number of IC's used to measure very hot spots around motors have increased dramatically ... this is due to adoption of the SI2C sensor interface standard. These sensors (read IC chips) can play in the exhaust system where the temp is in the very hot 400C or 750F range.
However, most under hood temp seldom get beyond the 150F mark. Chk out this link for under hood temp with a Honda Civic Sir that has a modifed from preformance motor from Australia with max underhood temp of only 60C or 140F in their summer ...
http://www.teirney.net/civic/TemperatureReadings.htm
So, seeing that;
1) There is a lot of data out there that confirms performance benefits in a variety of motors using a CAI over stock and none that confirms air flow from stock air intakes come close to that of aftermarket
2) knowing that the ECU can handle a lot of heat and will thermal out first before it becomes throwaway
3) knowing that the under the hood temp of my low performance elantra, in most ambiant temp, is not going to overheat the ECU
... it does make sense for some of us to spend $120 to add some performance and sound while getting better gas milage ... if only we could keep our foot out of it!
... +7,000km and still going with my ECU surviving under the hood temperatures
This is not a Honda. The Hyundai ECU on the 07+ car is a 32 bit processor and is the same as a regular IC. Most ECU's are 16 bit processors. Only difference is the casing acts like the heat sink. They do not necessarily shut down when they overheat; I have replaced ECU's in cars that did overheat and the IC chipset did show signs of overheating, which is the main reason why they fail. Any electronic devise is made in the same manner whether it is for a home or car. Equus can give more info because that is his area (he used to program the ECUs). Your link only shows intake charge temp differences, but not IC temp differences. Don't confuse the two. I'm talking ECU/computer tech here, not intake air temps.
As for a flow rate reading, that can easily be done with the right stuff. I made a flow gauge for the oil filters and tested several of those and making one up for the intake is similar to what I did for the filters (I will try that this weekend). Having the same/similar air volume as an aftermarket setup causes me to rethink the purpose of doing the mod. Measuring the amount of restriction in the intake setup also gives you a baseline which one to use.
Colder air on the stock HD intake is colder than what is seen on the XD because that design has air coming in from a colder area. Stock Honda intakes are not designed like the HD setup as well. Most of those are restrictive. I found that the HD setup when I had mine off is much better because the resonator is not within the airflow path, which on most cars the airflow passes through the resonator (which is restrictive) before hitting the filter. On the HD, the resonator is on the side of the intake tubing and airflow passes by it freely, although the resonator can slow the air down slightly, but not as when the air goes through the baffles in most resonators. On a stock Honda intake, the incoming air is within the underhood area. The HD setup is getting air out of that area because the intake port is outside of that underhood proximity.
Look at my dyno graph in the dyno area. I had the engine bone stock at that point. Later on this month, I'm redoing the dyno with the intake and exhaust modifications I've done since then. That will show you the difference in where the power ended up at.
Posted by: CRF450Jim Mar 9 2008, 01:35 PM
As for a flow rate reading, that can easily be done with the right stuff. I made a flow gauge for the oil filters and tested several of those and making one up for the intake is similar to what I did for the filters (I will try that this weekend). Having the same/similar air volume as an aftermarket setup causes me to rethink the purpose of doing the mod. Measuring the amount of restriction in the intake setup also gives you a baseline which one to use.
Colder air on the stock HD intake is colder than what is seen on the XD because that design has air coming in from a colder area. Stock Honda intakes are not designed like the HD setup as well. Most of those are restrictive. I found that the HD setup when I had mine off is much better because the resonator is not within the airflow path, which on most cars the airflow passes through the resonator (which is restrictive) before hitting the filter. On the HD, the resonator is on the side of the intake tubing and airflow passes by it freely, although the resonator can slow the air down slightly, but not as when the air goes through the baffles in most resonators. On a stock Honda intake, the incoming air is within the underhood area. The HD setup is getting air out of that area because the intake port is outside of that underhood proximity.
Look at my dyno graph in the dyno area. I had the engine bone stock at that point. Later on this month, I'm redoing the dyno with the intake and exhaust modifications I've done since then. That will show you the difference in where the power ended up at.
I do appreciate the info as there are some real truths in it ... however, I am compelled to respond to the FUD portions.
1) I understand that an Elantra is not a Honda. Don't be confused with the Honda link example ,,, as I stated in my initial post, the only reason that I added this link was to show that underhood temp are typically less than 150F as opposed to the rather high +190F as suggested. This had nothing to do about ECU temps or here the intake air comes from. In the next 30days I will have put in place monitoring of under hood temp on my Elantra to minimize the confusion. As a side note, the under hood temp clearly show the potential benefit with the denser charge of a CAI. I have added nitrous to a number of motors and found that half the performance benefit comes from the nitrous "supercooling" the intake as opposed to just adding the extra oxygen molecule with more fuel.
2) WRT ECU temps ... interesting factoid of 16 bit vs 32bit ... but not very relevant to the topic. The main contributer of heat with uprocessors is its clock cycle and how much the processor is used ... typically both are significantly less in ECU's than what we see in todays PC's (where 64bit is the standard).
3) WRT ECU overheating ... it would be more factual if you could state in confidence that the ECU's you relaced that "looked like the processor overheated" were actually tested to prove that overheating caused an issue ... rather than just your thougts ... its kind of like a "guesstimate" or "SOTP Dyno". It would also be good if you could state that the Elantra ECU "does not" have an ECU thermal out. Most newer technology ECU's do but the Elantra may not have this. BTW, an easy way to resolve the potential of overheating is is to use some of the stock intake to flow air over the ECU heat sink.
4) IC manufacturing ... all IC's ARE NOT created equal ... some are made for more hostile enviroments ... please take some time to investigate the SI2C technology that I mentioned in my initial post ... a technology that is typically used in a car but not in a home . I did not see any response to the ECU temp of 317.5 °F from another non-Elantra ECU.
5) why ECU's fail ... the main reason is external issues as opposed to primarially heat. The external issues are due to things such as static, shorts in external wire harness causing failure of internal ECU comoponents, water, just bad manufacturing/design ,,, etc. A transistor junction is about 7microns. A static charge tears off about 3microns. The resulting 4microns allows the junction to continue working but causes it to significantly overheat and typically fail quite rapidly ... 30days or more depending on use. Note, this may be the "signs of heating" that you observed in other ECU's that were dead for some reason. It is interesting to note that many failures with ECUs under the dash are casued by leaks in the car's heating sys. So, maybe the engine bay is a less hostile enviroment?
6) Flow rate ... you keep stating that "Having the same/similar air volume as an aftermarket setup causes me to rethink the purpose of doing the mod". Lets discuss this once you have proven that the flow rate is the same. BTW, go back an look at the pics I posted of stock vs current intake ... do you really think that flow rate would be the same? That being said, its more than just flow rate, its also the benefit of cooler charge of air with a CAI. If you trully believe that the under the hood temps are >190F then this is a case by itself for a CAI. Those underhood temp are really heating up the stock air box that corresponds to heated intake air. In my discussions with K&N people, the Apollo can deliver more air flow than my motor can demand in a normally asperated mode.
7) It would be great if you could dyno the CAI as a comparison ... this would be closest to the "real world" performance test. Although, the CAI would flow even colder air and deliver a denser charge with the car actually moving.
I do not want to turn this into a "back and forth" discussion on this topic. I did want to follow your lead on stating the facts as opposed to conjecture ... from your intial post "Without an actual dyno, there is no telling what the increase would be." Your posts seemed to contain a some decisions/suggestions that were backed-up up by conjecture as opposed to facts.
This thread was really all about is it safe to CAI the 07Elantra. Its truly up to each individual to decide. Based on what I know, both hard facts and experience, I have decided to do it and I am enjoying the results. Others may not chose to do it. I have tried to lay out the facts that I know as well as the "intuitive" details that are based on experience. Its truly important not to dwell on Fear Uncertanty and Doubt (FUD). These should not be part of the decision as much as a healthy respect for knowledge and risk ... there is a significant difference between the two.
I hope that I have been able to arm readers with more factual information to allow them to make an informed decision ... to CAI or not to CAI.
Posted by: cclngthr Mar 9 2008, 05:23 PM
1. The ECU on the Hyundai is under the hood and exposed to temps as high as 200 degrees, including the 850 degree F temperature of the first catalyst. HMC programmed the ECU to make the catalyst operate at that temperature, and with it under the hood as well as the engine and transmission, the casing on the ECU needs to be cooler than what the temperature of the ECU is putting out. This is not CAI temperatures. You seem to confuse a CAI temperature with underhood temperature. 2 different issues here. I am specifically talking about underhood temps as related to temps of the engine and trans, which are higher than CAI temps. CAI temps are lower by nature because the air is cold as it enters the filter and flows at a high rate thus warming up the air is not as easy if plastic is used. Since most CAI's are metal, underhood temperatures heat up the metal faster because metal transfers heat better than plastic, what temperature of air is entering the metal tubing quickly warms up once it reaches the intake manifold. With a plastic tube/intake system, heat transfer is not as easy due to the material.
2. The higher processor produces more heat, as with normal IC's. The HD ECU speed is operating faster due to the design of what it is supposed to do. Its decisions make the engine run better, but also decisions regarding the whole electrical system is integrated with that same system. Honda's started using this around 5-6 years ago, where the ECU does more tasks than engine and transmission management. However, Honda/Acura has had multiple electrical gremlins that posed problems regarding the ECU management. HMC decided in 06 with the NF and TG that increasing the processor speed as well as other revisions can improve the reliability of the electronic systems. Apparently, that worked for Hyundai.
3. ECU overheating causes certain functions to intermittently fail and sometimes all functions fail. Voltage is usually passed through chips, and if the voltage does not go through the chip at a certain rate (time or voltage) the chipset is bad or the board is bad. On a 99 Mazda 626 I worked on, there was a bank 2 o2 sensor inefficency code at times and the sensor and catalyst tested out OK. With both the cat and sensor testing fine, the wiring was checked and that also tested fine. On the ECU, testing voltage at the chipset found voltage was entering parts of it, but not exiting where it should be. Discoloration of the IC also shows signs of overheating. Some chipsets have a microcircuit that is visible and under magnification, that chipset shows breakage of the circuitry. Usually, under normal conditions the ECU stays stable, but if it gets hot, instability is seen, which can result in a variety of things, from codes to drivability issues to loss of drivability.
6. Flow rate measures restriction and volume of air through the system that is bench tested. When I bench tested oil filters, I used a stable liquid pressure (psi) and had a gauge before the filter measuring the psi going into the filter and another at the exit measuring the psi level of the liquid exiting the filter. A similar devise can be used to test the stock airbox on the bench where a stable pressure and volume is entering the intake and the second set of gauges reads the volume and pressure of air exiting the system.
You keep saying cooler air. On the HD, the incoming air is not entering the system from the engine bay area. It is entering the system just outside that area ahead of the radiator and AC condenser. Most cars have intake systems that the incoming air enters the system from behind the radiator, which the air is hotter than ahead of the radiator.
You also are neglecting that the intake air has to be at a certain temperature for fuel to burn efficiently and cleanly. Most cars do have intake manifold TB's that have coolant lines running to them. The Elantra HD and XD both have this not only due to emission requirements, but also having the throttle body operating correctly. If the incoming air is too cold, the burn is not as efficient thus higher emissions are seen. The same can be said if the air is too hot.
7. When I tried the CAI I temporarily used (a 3 inch long tube) I ended up getting a CEL with a lean code. There was too much air for the ECU to handle. Although the same intake works fine with the XD, the ECU adaptability is narrower on the HD to solve several issues. 1. The XD suffered from a 3800-4200 rpm bog, which is not present on the HD. Here, the fuel ratio was changed to prevent this bog from occuring on the HD. This was noticed when I changed my plugs, which were a medium brown rather than a light tan to gray color that is normally seen. The XD has a gray color on the plugs when they are removed. Here, a leaner mixture is seen. Since the darker color is evident on the HD plugs, the mixture is richer to offset any bog in an rpm range. You don't want to run a engine too lean or the piston will give out on you.
Here is my dyno sheet with the stock HD. 
After this run was made, I modified the intake by removing the resonator and capping the hole and putting a K&N drop in filter in and removing the stock 1.8 inch exhaust pipe and resonator and replacing that with a 2.25 inch pipe from the 2nd cat to the muffler and retaining the stock 1.8 inch tailpipe from the muffler back to the bumper.
Posted by: CRF450Jim Mar 10 2008, 03:17 PM
2. The higher processor produces more heat, as with normal IC's. The HD ECU speed is operating faster due to the design of what it is supposed to do. Its decisions make the engine run better, but also decisions regarding the whole electrical system is integrated with that same system. Honda's started using this around 5-6 years ago, where the ECU does more tasks than engine and transmission management. However, Honda/Acura has had multiple electrical gremlins that posed problems regarding the ECU management. HMC decided in 06 with the NF and TG that increasing the processor speed as well as other revisions can improve the reliability of the electronic systems. Apparently, that worked for Hyundai.
3. ECU overheating causes certain functions to intermittently fail and sometimes all functions fail. Voltage is usually passed through chips, and if the voltage does not go through the chip at a certain rate (time or voltage) the chipset is bad or the board is bad. On a 99 Mazda 626 I worked on, there was a bank 2 o2 sensor inefficency code at times and the sensor and catalyst tested out OK. With both the cat and sensor testing fine, the wiring was checked and that also tested fine. On the ECU, testing voltage at the chipset found voltage was entering parts of it, but not exiting where it should be. Discoloration of the IC also shows signs of overheating. Some chipsets have a microcircuit that is visible and under magnification, that chipset shows breakage of the circuitry. Usually, under normal conditions the ECU stays stable, but if it gets hot, instability is seen, which can result in a variety of things, from codes to drivability issues to loss of drivability.
6. Flow rate measures restriction and volume of air through the system that is bench tested. When I bench tested oil filters, I used a stable liquid pressure (psi) and had a gauge before the filter measuring the psi going into the filter and another at the exit measuring the psi level of the liquid exiting the filter. A similar devise can be used to test the stock airbox on the bench where a stable pressure and volume is entering the intake and the second set of gauges reads the volume and pressure of air exiting the system.
You keep saying cooler air. On the HD, the incoming air is not entering the system from the engine bay area. It is entering the system just outside that area ahead of the radiator and AC condenser. Most cars have intake systems that the incoming air enters the system from behind the radiator, which the air is hotter than ahead of the radiator.
You also are neglecting that the intake air has to be at a certain temperature for fuel to burn efficiently and cleanly. Most cars do have intake manifold TB's that have coolant lines running to them. The Elantra HD and XD both have this not only due to emission requirements, but also having the throttle body operating correctly. If the incoming air is too cold, the burn is not as efficient thus higher emissions are seen. The same can be said if the air is too hot.
7. When I tried the CAI I temporarily used (a 3 inch long tube) I ended up getting a CEL with a lean code. There was too much air for the ECU to handle. Although the same intake works fine with the XD, the ECU adaptability is narrower on the HD to solve several issues. 1. The XD suffered from a 3800-4200 rpm bog, which is not present on the HD. Here, the fuel ratio was changed to prevent this bog from occuring on the HD. This was noticed when I changed my plugs, which were a medium brown rather than a light tan to gray color that is normally seen. The XD has a gray color on the plugs when they are removed. Here, a leaner mixture is seen. Since the darker color is evident on the HD plugs, the mixture is richer to offset any bog in an rpm range. You don't want to run a engine too lean or the piston will give out on you.
Here is my dyno sheet with the stock HD.
After this run was made, I modified the intake by removing the resonator and capping the hole and putting a K&N drop in filter in and removing the stock 1.8 inch exhaust pipe and resonator and replacing that with a 2.25 inch pipe from the 2nd cat to the muffler and retaining the stock 1.8 inch tailpipe from the muffler back to the bumper.
cclngthr, I am disappointed that your posts seem to be so focused on proving that the CAI mod is bad that you are flipfloping on details, trying to make guestimates sound like facts and propagating myths. This is not fair for others reading these posts and using the info to make decisions … shame on you. My input follows. Please, try to stay away from the FUD and provide just the facts.
1. Flipflop – You seem to be confused as to what your real under the hood temp guestimate is. You have mentioned three different temp ranges in a variety of posts for underhood temp 195-200, +190 and now as high as 200. So what is your final answer … a scary +190 or a max of 200F? Please back this up with a reference to an outside resource so we know that this is not just another Guestimate. Mythbuster – Most cars are designed to provide airflow in the engine bay that ensures that, under most conditions, that the engine bay temps are not that much higher than ambient. So, the real exposure to high heat in the engine bay is when the car is idling on a very hot and windless day and/or when there is a motor malfunction that causes an overheat condition. Myths – Not sure why you are talking about metal CAI's … review my pix's, it is quite obvious that there is minimal metal in my CAI.
2. Myths – What is a "higher processor"? Mythbuster – A newer car's ECU manages many inputs/outputs … however, this is nowhere near that of a PC. As a result, The ECU clk cycle is much less than the current PC and its subsequent heat output is much lower than a PC. Mythbuster – From one of your previous posts "Any electronic devise is made in the same manner whether it is for a home or car" … ECU design an manufacturing is different than that for the home. Most ECU's are in a sealed unit without any fan, whereas most PC's require significant air flow. If you continue to doubt this then duct tape your laptop to your car's ECU, put a remote monitor next to the driver's seat, run an app and then see how many km you can go before the laptop dies.
3. Mythbuster - ECU overheating is not the major cause of ECU failure!
Mythbuster – Voltage does not pass thru chips, current passes thru chips.
Guestimate – You seem to have experienced a number of ECU failures that you believe were caused by too much heat but you never really quantified that heat was the issue. Have you ever asked yourself why the cars you are working on are experiencing so many ECU failures? Or, why you never actually find out that the cause was for the failure? Perhaps there is some learning here.
4) & 5) Not sure why you did not want to respond to these? I will take this time to reinforce the fact that every 10F change in intake air means 1hp … you do the math.
6)Guestimate – You stated in a previous post that you would measure intake flow rate this last weekend … what are the results? FlipFlop – In a previous post you stated that the intake resonator was not restrictive but now you say you removed it … so, what is your final answer … do you believe it is or it is not restrictive? Yes, the TB does have, in stock form, coolant lines … and yes these help ensure a more consistent intake temp (these lines can add heat or even take it away) and, that this helps keep emissions low. However, one of the main things it does is to ensure that ice does not build up in cold, damp climates … this could shut down the motor. That being said, the ECU can handle a wide variation in intake temps without impacting efficiency … again, these things are designed for worst case scenario. Myth - So, I'm not sure why you bring this up … it almost feels like you are saying that a CAI would be a problem or cause efficiency issues as it would deliver too cold a charge? I have not seen any significant milage impact (read efficiency) with my CAI and no TB coolant lines in -33C weather.
7. Myth – A properly designed/installed CAI will not generate a CEL. I'm not sure why you seemed to have issues with your CAI … the CAI in the pix's I posted continues to work fine … as does my ECU.
Thanks for the dyno sheet. I am very interested in seeing the dyno sheet that shows the improvement with only a CAI change. All I have for quantitative measures so far is the increase in fuel milage of about 4%.
Sorry for the flame … this one really got under my skin!
Posted by: cclngthr Mar 10 2008, 09:23 PM
Prove your point with actual underhood temps with the hood closed. The engine runs at 195 degrees, the cat converter is 850 degrees. Air flowing through the radiator and A/C condenser is not ambient temp and cannot be ambient temp because the coolant temperature and the A/C condenser is not 70 degrees. The temperature of the radiator is the same as the engine at the hot tank and about 90 degrees at the cold tank. Average temperatures in the middle should be between 195 and 90. Air flowing past the 850 degree catalyst will warm up the air, not cool it. Both of those items are right in front of the radiator.
Depending on driving style, load and outside temperature, temperatures can vary. If you drive like an ass, yes, the temperatures are going to be higher, as well as if you are loaded. The same thing also happens if the ambient temperature is hot. In my area, temperatures range in the daytime from 40-95 degrees, but other areas have temperatures over 110. A standard 70 degrees typical and usually referred to, but not always appropriate. Still, temperatures are going to be higher than ambient temperatures, but not 150 degrees as you claim. Maybe if the cat converter was not under the hood. With the catalyst being right behind the radiator, temperatures are going to be hotter becaise that cat is hot.
Most cai's are metal.
All of these are aluminum. Tell me they are not metal.
You provide no data/evidence here. The ECU on the HD is a 32 bit processor, which is the same as most PC's. Fews operate on a 64 bit speed because the programs available for that OS speed is not as wide as the 32 bit processor speed. My PC is capable of operating at 64 bit, but is operating at 32 bit because the OS runs more stable at that speed.
The stock HD system is not as restrictive as the XD. The flow on the HD system with a base pressure of 5 psi is 4.8 psi at the TB with stock filter and resonator. The same pressure was used on the XD intake system, and from the base 5 psi entering the intake at the resonator, the psi at the TB was 3.9. Everything was factory, including the filters. Removing the HD resonator only changed the pressure from 4.8(with) to 4.85(without). With a K&N drop in filter on the HD, the pressure at the TB was 4.89. You are comparing aftermarket with factory. I'm comparing factory HD to factory XD.
Sensors send voltage, not current. That same voltage is sent to the chip so the *data* can be read.
The CAI I used was 3 inches in diameter. The airflow was too high due to the ECU programming, which was changed in 07 to a parameter that is narrower than the 01-06 XD/2's. The same 3 inch CAI works on the older cars because the ECU parameters are wider. With a wider parameter, the ECU will adapt to a larger range in airflow. The HD parameter is narrower for emissions and possibly a solution to the 3800-4200 rpm bog the 01-03 and some 04-06 XD's had even with the reflash. A CAI that is 2.5-2.75 inches in diameter could work, but again this depends on the length and type of filter used. The ECU's are adaptive, but it will not adapt as far as the older cars without the engine running lean. A few people on HP.com also experienced cel's with the HD as well.
Posted by: CRF450Jim Mar 10 2008, 11:42 PM
I have allready provided a link that shows underhood temp of a high performance Honda is at 150f max during summer. Perhaps you should do a INET search on underhood temps and then you will find that I am closer to the truth than you think. Its not all about knowing the heat output of each compnent as you have stated ,,, rather it is also about knowing that the auto designers developed a way to get rid of the heat with airflow. The real issue here is that you truly need to be consistant when you supply info such as under hood temp ... and not be a history revisionist and state the reason why you provided different temps was because there could be a variety of different temps depending on other conditions.
Nice pix's of metal CAI's but AGAIN not relevant ... the discussion was about your thoughts that the non-metal CAI I have installed would impact ECU cooling ... posting more pixs of metal CAI and talking about metal CAIs truly takes it off topic.
With regards to voltage & current ... ask anyone with some basic electronics understanding ... its the current that flows thru IC's and the voltage is a result of the resistance that the current sees. The sensors, allow a different votage to be seen due to their resistance change and the current runing thru them.
There is no such thing as a 64bit speed as you have suggested. Rather it is a measure of how big a register can be processed with one clk cycle. BTW 64 bit became stable a long time ago.
I did provide evidence that showed a non Elantra ECU could take in excess of 317f. There will be even more evidence if you would put your laptop under your hood to see how long it would last ... the ECU and PC's are designed and manufactured differently than household products. An indication that you agree is that you will never try to put the laptop under your hood.
WRT intake resonator ... I'm not comparing between models ... I'm questioning your inconsistancy when you try to prove one point by saying its not restrictive and then you try to show another point in the next post that says you have removed it because it is now restrictive.
CAI diameter and CEL ... with your depth of experience I do not know why you would ever try to use a 3" connector when a 2.75" is a great fit for both the TB an MAS ... what were you thinking? BTW, in one post you said it was a 3" diameter pipe an in another you said it was 3" long ... which is it? FYI a reasonable length that should not produce any CEL is one that is close to stock (sometimes you have to look inside the stock air box to determine the length that the air will see. I used 7" between TB and MAS and 4" between MAS and filter. Again, no CEL.
Still do not know your definition of a "higher processor" ... want to give it a shot?
Any thoughts on why you seem to have experienced so many ECU failures?
So we are back to the same issues ... get consistant, speak the real facts that are backed up, do not be a history revisionist and this will help the readers.
You may know the buzz words and a bunch of factoids but you could have a better grasp of what they mean.
Have you tried the laptop under the hood yet?
BTW the ECU is still running great in my CAI'd Elantra ... 7,600km and counting ... still getting 4% better milage.
I'm done!
Posted by: cclngthr Mar 11 2008, 01:01 AM
Nice pix's of metal CAI's but AGAIN not relevant ... the discussion was about your thoughts that the non-metal CAI I have installed would impact ECU cooling ... posting more pixs of metal CAI and talking about metal CAIs truly takes it off topic.
With regards to voltage & current ... ask anyone with some basic electronics understanding ... its the current that flows thru IC's and the voltage is a result of the resistance that the current sees. The sensors, allow a different votage to be seen due to their resistance change and the current runing thru them.
There is no such thing as a 64bit speed as you have suggested. Rather it is a measure of how big a register can be processed with one clk cycle. BTW 64 bit became stable a long time ago.
I did provide evidence that showed a non Elantra ECU could take in excess of 317f. There will be even more evidence if you would put your laptop under your hood to see how long it would last ... the ECU and PC's are designed and manufactured differently than household products. An indication that you agree is that you will never try to put the laptop under your hood.
WRT intake resonator ... I'm not comparing between models ... I'm questioning your inconsistancy when you try to prove one point by saying its not restrictive and then you try to show another point in the next post that says you have removed it because it is now restrictive.
CAI diameter and CEL ... with your depth of experience I do not know why you would ever try to use a 3" connector when a 2.75" is a great fit for both the TB an MAS ... what were you thinking? BTW, in one post you said it was a 3" diameter pipe an in another you said it was 3" long ... which is it? FYI a reasonable length that should not produce any CEL is one that is close to stock (sometimes you have to look inside the stock air box to determine the length that the air will see. I used 7" between TB and MAS and 4" between MAS and filter. Again, no CEL.
Still do not know your definition of a "higher processor" ... want to give it a shot?
Any thoughts on why you seem to have experienced so many ECU failures?
So we are back to the same issues ... get consistant, speak the real facts that are backed up, do not be a history revisionist and this will help the readers.
You may know the buzz words and a bunch of factoids but you could have a better grasp of what they mean.
Have you tried the laptop under the hood yet?
BTW the ECU is still running great in my CAI'd Elantra ... 7,600km and counting ... still getting 4% better milage.
I'm done!
Your questioning me about the removal of my resonator: I chose to remove it when I wanted access to something under it. I knew that its removal was not necessary, but do see a slight increase of airflow, but the amount is so slight that it does not make a difference whether it is off or on. The resonator is placed on the side of the intake tubing, thus air can bypass it, but also enter/exit it for sound elimination. On other cars, air actually flows through the resonator directly. On the XD, air must flow into the resonator and through baffles to get to the airbox. On the HD, this is not how it was designed.
Why do you try to suggest that the ECU, as Hyundai designed/placed it the way they did, needs zero cooling? Hyundai designed the air box in such a way to cool the ECU for a specific reason. That reason is to cool it. That unit is an expensive component, and prior posts, not only by me, both on here and also on EXD about the risks of overheating. Are you willing to warranty your statements as concrete that the ECU on the Hyundai will withstand a hot environment without any failure? What if your suggestion results in a failure down the road, say 20-30K plus miles? Would you be willing to pay for someones ECU if it fails under your recommendation? You claim that all ECU's are different, but modern ECU's are a computer, and not just a simple electronic devise. They operate faster because of the microprocessor and chipset in them.
Cobas said this in an earlier post:
ECU's do have microprocessors as regular PC's do:
Modern ECUs use a microprocessor which can process the inputs from the engine sensors in real time. An electronic control unit contains the hardware and software (firmware). The hardware consists of electronic components on a printed circuit board (PCB). The main component on this circuit board is a microcontroller chip (CPU). The software is stored in the microcontroller or other chips on the PCB, typically in EPROMs or flash memory so the CPU can be re-programmed by uploading updated code or replacing chips. This is also referred to as an (electronic) Engine Management System (EMS).
Modern ECUs sometimes include features as cruise control etc.
A lot of risks there. My bet is you will not make a warranty on your claims when a failure occurs.
If you comprehend like a second grader, maybe you confuse diameter with length. Reread what I said. I said a 3 inch CAI. why do you think that is 3 inches long? CAI means long tube. I assume people here have the comprehension beyond a 2nd grader, and I expect adults to have a reading/comprehension level of at least a high school student. Normal people assume a 3 inch CAI means a 3 inch diameter long tube intake.
The 3 inch CAI works on the older model Elantra with no problem. No CEL's whatsoever. It also works on the pre 05 Tiburon. Nothing was said about MAF placement by me. Why do you assume I said something about MAF location on the CAI? That is a non issue because I am assuming people have enough knowledge where it should be without me telling them specifically where it needs to be. If they can't understand that concept, they have no business working on a car.
Posted by: Stevetheriddler Mar 11 2008, 01:49 AM
I am going to have to go with cclngthr on this one. My old pickup had the ECU in the passenger side kick panel in the cab. After 18 years of being used in the hot California sun, it started throwing codes with the EFI even though there were really no problems with the system itself. I like CAI's and I would like to have one in my own car, but when it is my warranty on the line, I am inclined to make the more practical decision of going without it and therefore not risking the failure of a very expensive component not covered under a busted warranty. You may not notice any problems immediately, but that is the kind of thing that will snowball into something big down the road and bite you in the butt. Now I'm not necessarily saying that CRF450Jim is being ignorant. I understand his freedom to make his own decisions, and I am simply saying that when it comes down to installing a CAI, that I am not going to do it. To each his own.
Posted by: Bigs Mar 11 2008, 06:42 AM
Guys, we learn with trial and error. Doesn't mean Colin is wrong nor Jim. We all had to go through all this when the XD came out. We were all scared to try new things and would wait on someone to try it out first before we would. Well, Jim here took the plunge and has had no issues for a good 7000KM's. Now, nothing says he will never have an issue, but dang he's lined up for a good run.
Jim, we appreciate your input!
There.
Posted by: CRF450Jim Mar 11 2008, 02:18 PM
Perhaps there is some learning here from mtlelantra ... for those that are concerned about cooking their ECU, it would be fairly easy to run some of the stock tubing to cool the heat sink on the ECU. This would provide airflow to the ECU that would be similar to stock. BTW, to quantify the risk, a rebuilt or used ECU for the Elantra is about $300.
Now for cclngthr ... the sky is not falling
I'm sure that no one on this forum will warranty a mod ... including yourself. Everyone will have to make their own decision and live with the results ... good or bad. This is another bad path.
WRT ECU's and processors ... you have taken this down the wrong path. All of us understand that the ECU has a uprocessor. In fact, for a rather long time most ECU's had some type of uprocessor in them. What you do not understand is that because the ECU is rather slow (about 40mhz vs a PC's 2ghz) and moves a lot less data compared to traditional PC's and because it is built to different specs ... the ECU produces a lot less heat and can live in a hotter environment ... period. Just imagine the amount of data flowing and clk cycle requirement of a PC doing full motion video at 30fps while you are also running an xls and word pgm.
The ECU does not get zero cooling with the CAI. There is a natural flow of air that comes up from under the car and passes over the ECU heat sink ... even more flow now that the large amount of intake plumbing has been removed. This additional flow caused by removeal of the extra intake plumbing that is now now longer needed, also helps keep the whole engine bay cooler. B)
The placement of the MAF is key with intake altering along with the width/length of the connecting pipes. Altering these key elements may change the torque at certain RPM's even if it does not throw a CEL. THis is due to the fact that, as with the exhaust, the intake flow is not consistant ... it has pulses that vary with RPM. So both intake and exhaust have resonators that are designed to do a balancing act of minimizing sound while maximizing torque at all RPM's ... or even spike torque at specific RPM's to compensate for a drop in torque due to some other component. That is why a static flow bench with intakes do not really tell the true story ... and in fact can lead people down the wrong path.
There is not much under the resonator ... I hope you found what your were looking to access there?? You seem to continue to miss the point ... the issue not the fact that you removed the resonator. Rather, it is the fact that you change your story to suit the point you are trying to make.
Maybe this is a job for the much talked about "supercharger" ... blowing air on the ECU heat sink could prove to be more useful for this device than blowing air into the intake.
I will post updates, including under temp readings.BTW cclngthr, it seems you have been arguing this in a number of forums in the past? You appear to be overally concerned about heating the ECU wherever it is placed. Its good to see you are consistant with the varying of your "under the hood temps" ... you had a very tight range in the following post as well as a very low temp for inside your car.
cclngthr11-01-2007, 12:02 AMOk, I'll play the devil's advocate too.
Why wouldn't the stock ECU on our XD's have a fan if it was needed? It's actually hidden in the dash, with no airflow to it, ha.
The ECU is under the dash away from a lot of heat and is positioned so there is just enough airflow to cool the fins, but even then it still gets a bit warmer than I'd like.
The HD ECU is under the hood and temperatures are much warmer than 70 degrees F. Under hood temps range between 180-210 degrees F, much warmer than 70 degrees F in the XD.
I would prefer a cooler environment for the ECU.
only1db11-01-2007, 03:42 AMthere are no fins on the xd/xd2 ecu....and doesnt heat rise...so that would mean that when you have the heat on the floor....it rises right up to the ecu and other wiring....so it would actually be getting all of the heat....
the ecu does not get that warm that it needs a fan...its only doing basic features...its not surfing the web, playing music, and playing porn in the backround at the same time....if it did then i would have a 7 inch monitor in the dash....hahah
It seems that your ECU seems to have grown fins where all the like models do not have fins ... what gives?
Wow doesn't this sound familiar ... an ECU is not a PC and does not get as warm as a PC? Even under the dash the ambiant ECU temps can be much higher than 70F ... think leaving you car windows closed with a black interior/exterior on a 100F day.
see the whole post here http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-26222.html
Posted by: fgummett Mar 11 2008, 02:23 PM
---
Instead... wouldn't it be great to see this wealth of information in a Wiki..?
Posted by: fastmov4 Jul 15 2010, 10:35 AM
It's been over two years sine we had any posts on this thread. Can we get an update from Jim on how the CAI is holding up? Colin, any news on your end with regards to performance improvements? Thanks in advance.
Chris
Posted by: jamhandman Jul 15 2010, 11:20 AM
cclngthr no longer has an HD. He sold it off due to electrical issues and got a Mazda 3. I forget where the post is, but it's around. I think there is still an issue where the ECU is cooled from the Air intake, so you would need something there to cool it inplace of the forced air. Bob?
Posted by: RyanLJS Jul 31 2014, 02:45 PM
Has anybody had any results from removing the stock airbox for a new intake? Good or bad it would be nice to know if the ecu withstood the heat or not.
Posted by: jamhandman Aug 5 2014, 10:06 AM
I have not replaced the stock intake all I did was remove the front resonator and recently dropped on a K&N... oh I also removed the Carbon filter... I mean the car isn't going to get much faster with a CAI, but might be a fun project. You could do the coolant bypass on the throttle body... I didn't feel like doing that.
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