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> Elantra MD Performance Modifications, Newbie needs advice
Vinnie
post Sep 12 2011, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (benman @ Sep 12 2011, 11:30 AM) *
Hi Vinnie -- in other threads, it's been determined that this is a PZEV add-on. My assumption is that it cleans the air of things that would not really harm the engine but would produce some negative readings when present in the exhaust, making some of the difference between PZEV and ULEV. I do intend to at least do this part, and will let you know the effect when I do it.


I just removed the charcoal filter which is the "non removable" filter - which is on top of the air box.

A bit more flow feels a TINY bit better and a TINY bit nicer coupled with removing the resonator. Nothing extremely noticeable but I can feel it lol.

I was able to remove the charcoal filter without cutting the retainer and without damaging the filter.

No engine lights yet, truthfully there seems to be little if any restriction with the charcoal filter in.


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VMF
post Sep 12 2011, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE (Vinnie @ Sep 12 2011, 05:51 PM) *
I just removed the charcoal filter which is the "non removable" filter - which is on top of the air box.

A bit more flow feels a TINY bit better and a TINY bit nicer coupled with removing the resonator. Nothing extremely noticeable but I can feel it lol.

I was able to remove the charcoal filter without cutting the retainer and without damaging the filter.

No engine lights yet, truthfully there seems to be little if any restriction with the charcoal filter in.

restriction will be felt only on very high rpms. just like bigger exhaust piping or cai or any other upgrade will only produce gains at high rpms (over 4500) as well. its all about fluid dynamics. if you are driving in the city and dont really rev your engine, gains are unnoticable. even if you install CAI and IF it will give you extra 4 hp, you will not notice that. firstly coz you will see that gain on a dyno only at higher revs and secondly its all in your head:)
been there, done that


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Vinnie
post Sep 12 2011, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE (VMF @ Sep 12 2011, 06:47 PM) *
if you are driving in the city and dont really rev your engine, gains are unnoticable.


Assuming makes people look bad.... I drive all highway (35 miles) to work..... with the exception of 3 miles when I get off the ramp....

QUOTE
even if you install CAI and IF it will give you extra 4 hp, you will not notice that.

The HD 07/08/09/10 already has a cold air intake....

QUOTE
firstly coz you will see that gain on a dyno only at higher revs

I dont care to dyno a economy car...

QUOTE
and secondly its all in your head smile.gif been there, done that

While I may want to agree a tiny bit with that, when the wife was in my car this evening she asked why it was a little louder in the cabin and why it had more pep. (her words not mine)

Again... She had no idea I did anything because I didnt mention it to her nor did she see me working on it.

I'm not saying im trying to gain any hp, just screwing around with stuff that does not really need to be in the engine bay. If what I do screws anything up, the things I took out can go right back in with little or no trouble. The charcoal filter is useless. If I have to replace (clean) my air filter, and the charcoal filter is not truly replaceable, I feel it's a useless item.

If you think i'm trying to get 900hp out of my car you're mistaken. I'm not trying to gain any.

The HD is restrictive enough.

When my exhaust goes or rusts out, I'll figure out what I'll change there.

The HD needs back pressure so even if you put a header, stainless tipped platinum pipes and a fart can, it aint going to do shit.

The end all, be all solution to the inability of modding performance for the HD is the ECU.

A million dollars cannot upgrade this car performance wise without the ECU being altered and being the economy car it is, that's not something any company will invest research in.

Which leads me to this, little things I can do, I'll do.

I'd love to rip this engine out and dump in another but the car being newish and still under payments and the only car I have for work, it'll have to wait till I have more money and time. This is along with the stars aligning and my pipe dreams.

I'd buy a different car before I'd do this. I love my HD and I knew what I was getting into when I bought it.

ANYWAYS I've hijacked.gif and im signs-offtopic.gif


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Mayberryman
post Sep 13 2011, 04:27 AM
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I really need some help with this complete thread. First I must state that I really love both of my Elantras, the 2012 Automatic GLS and the 2002 Five Speed GT. The 2012 is getting far too much wax and interior care and the 2002 is a constant drain on my wallet, attempting to put it back together better than new. Now, the other side of the story, I just do not see the Elantra as a platform for any type of performance car, I do not think that that was the reason it was built and I do not think that with the electronics geared for gas mileage that very many performance parts will intergrate well into the vehicle. Lets face it, most of us at least considered on one of the highest levels the gas mileage and exterior styling of the Elantra when we made the purchase, oh I forgot, also the very good ride.

I hope that I am not doing the ultimate transgression by saying this, however, if performance is what you seek, there are many different brands of cars that are more associated with both factory and after market options such as the Honda and Toyota.

I do not mean to be the cold blanket on this conversation and will put the tib rear sway bar on my 02, perhaps put some better struts and springs on it (only slightly lowered) and enjoy the occasional back road. The one thing that I believe that despite the great styling and ride comfort, beneath the hood of the elantra resides the heart of an econo-box, after all the 40 MPG was a selling point for me.


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mbenz
post Sep 13 2011, 07:02 AM
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^^^ rofl cold blanket...but hes right there isnt that much you could do to the elantra without going to the ecu and putting ur money into that and finding a way to get around it or do something that wont completly if you have the money just go to performance shops they know what there doing and they will tell you but if your a diy guy forget it unless your job was doing performance stuff or fixing cars then go right ahead but if your just the average joe forget it theres alottt more into cars then an old 300zx to our elantra 300zx all wires while our elantra has a brain :/


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jamhandman
post Sep 13 2011, 07:10 AM
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I have to agree with vinnie on the increased feel after removing the resonator. I too felt the same reaction with my HD smile.gif I just wish I could make the pipe from the intake less curvy, that would be a nice upgrade smile.gif I've been waiting to get a flex pipe from autozone for a while, I just never did. sad.gif

Mayberryman, I agree, the elantra is not a fast car, that doesn't mean we won't attempt to get every last drop of performance out of these babies!!


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VMF
post Sep 13 2011, 07:48 AM
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Vinny i know what ure talking about, this is how it all started with my civic, and this is why i ended up buying another economy car that will actually get a gas mileage:) but in the civic i have all motor acura rsx-s engine that makes a bit over 300hp to the wheels. it is fun but its a friggin money pit. CAI on its own is NOT a bad thing. what makes one different from another is the design, in some cases the intake can slow the air down at higher revs if its not designed properly. once again ive seen that. that lil pep that you feel, its there till the ECU learns about the extra air it is getting and adjusts the mixture accordingly, so in 25-40 engine starts it will go back to normal. ECU is the key, just like u said, in the civic i have a modified ecu that connects to a computer via usb and i can control every possible aspect of the engine through that. i know engines need backpressure, the million $ questions is how much of it do they need? most of it is at the header/cat, not in the catback.
and the dyno, i dynoed all the cars but the hyundai, im just curious to see who much do they make to the wheels versus what the manufacturer claims is at the crank. its irrelevant if its an economy car or a ferrari. just pure curiosity.
QUOTE (Mayberryman @ Sep 13 2011, 05:27 AM) *
I really need some help with this complete thread. First I must state that I really love both of my Elantras, the 2012 Automatic GLS and the 2002 Five Speed GT. The 2012 is getting far too much wax and interior care and the 2002 is a constant drain on my wallet, attempting to put it back together better than new. Now, the other side of the story, I just do not see the Elantra as a platform for any type of performance car, I do not think that that was the reason it was built and I do not think that with the electronics geared for gas mileage that very many performance parts will intergrate well into the vehicle. Lets face it, most of us at least considered on one of the highest levels the gas mileage and exterior styling of the Elantra when we made the purchase, oh I forgot, also the very good ride.

I hope that I am not doing the ultimate transgression by saying this, however, if performance is what you seek, there are many different brands of cars that are more associated with both factory and after market options such as the Honda and Toyota.

I do not mean to be the cold blanket on this conversation and will put the tib rear sway bar on my 02, perhaps put some better struts and springs on it (only slightly lowered) and enjoy the occasional back road. The one thing that I believe that despite the great styling and ride comfort, beneath the hood of the elantra resides the heart of an econo-box, after all the 40 MPG was a selling point for me.

exactly! the reason why i bought the car was to get great mileage and creature comforts. i will let the mechanical part of it stay as it is. i have my civic and the jeep to mess around:) trying to see any performance from the lil mu engine is a very tough task and considering the car is new and not really popular in the aftermarket area the parts that are available are not from the reputable brands and can actually do more harm then good.


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NevynPA
post Sep 13 2011, 09:09 AM
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The other thing that can be done on the older Elantra's is a Tiburon V6 engine/tranny swap. One person here did it without much issue at all!


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benman
post Sep 13 2011, 12:16 PM
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Thanks for the discussion that's been going on -- it has been very educational for me.

My first conclusion in reading all of the different points of view, experiences, whatnot is that performance mods seem to not be the sort of thing that you can say "doing X mod will ALWAYS result in Y results." Every make/model/platform car is different and will react differently to things. Not to say that there aren't some absolutes (e.g., you're not going to get 200 hp out of '11 Elantra with modifications to stock engine, etc.) and some reasonable generalizations, but I've seen so many "That's not going to..." posts followed by "I did it and..." posts that approach those absolutes with a bit of scepticism.

For example, the K&N filters. Search Google and you'll find countless threads -- some people will say the oil causes a mess, other people say it's the best thing they ever did to their car. Some people notice no differece, some people say it's like night and day. I'm just trying to collect information and learn a little something in the process. Like I said, I haven't done this sort of thing in the past.

Another conclusion is that about 99.9% of the information on these sorts of things is purely anecdotal. There's simply no real data on how a part will actually perform on a given make/model under specific conditions. You just have to collect as much anecdotal data as possible to make an educated estimate and then have the guts to go with your gut and try something and perhaps find you've wasted some money or, worse, screwed up your car.

Anyway, I've enjoyed all the posts and if it continues, that would be great -- it just adds to the body of knowledge. Either way, at this point I've pretty much decided the following:

- I will, when I can test it to some degree, remove the carbon air filter from the airbox. Hyundai reports a 3HP difference between the ULEV and PZEV 2011 models (probably 2012 as well). I can't find any reference anywhere, but my gut feel is that the only difference between these two models is the filter, which chemically filters contaminants that are too small to be trapped by a paper filter show up in emissions tests when burned. Testing will amount to monitoring various OBD-II data while repeatedly performing identical (as nearly as possible) short runs -- maybe a little better, but not much more scientific, than "feels peppier."

- It's a two-month old car, so I'm probably not going to do anything else soon. First, I don't want to take chances with the warranty. Even if it didn't have warranty issues, I just don't feel comfortable making major mechanical changes just yet (not to mention that cutting the back bumper to accomodate a tailpipe makes me shiver). I'll wait until more people who are more daring and knowledgeable than me do this sort of thing to an MD (more anecdotal data). Then again, if my curiousity and impatience both get to me, I might be posting to tell you how it worked out.

My main reason for considering these was to increase fuel economy. While VMF intuits that "more air means more gas. so your fuel mileage will decrease", I don't think it's that simple. Some of the energy in each stroke is lost to the overhead of just making all the parts between the combustion chamber and the hubs move. If you can increase the power of each stroke, all of the increase goes towards non-overhead -- that is, turning the wheel. With more power per stroke, fewer strokes are needed to perform the same work of moving the car x distance at y velocity and, therefore, a net increase (or at least not a decrease) in MPG - especially in Western PA where I am constantly going uphill or, worse, accelerating from a stop on an uphill grade. With D-CVVT, the engine should see performance increases across the range and not just at high revs. I figure worst case, I have a zippier car for hills that gets the same MPG and maybe sounds like I'm 20 years younger than I am.

At least that's the way I understand it, but hey -- I could be wrong. I'd love to try it out (and I wouldn't mind a little cool sound) but I'm just to chicken-$#@% to try it right now.

Here's the background on me and why I even entertained these ideas:

- While I've been working at the same place for over 15 years, I was telecommuting for the past couple of years but had to start driving into work again -- about 25 miles round trip. I wanted to save some money on gas and, well, just wanted a new car. Buying an inexpensive commuter, I wanted to buy something that wasn't just basic transportation but that got good fuel economy.

- I'm finding that the hills in Pittsburgh and Western PA are killing fuel economy. Driving on the turnpike, I'm actually getting the 40 MPG, but driving in hilly backroads and hilly streets of Pittsburgh, I'm getting about 23. I have Torque for Android showing current MPG and it sucks on hills. This is why I still believe increasing HP a bit just might save a bit more than if I either 1) had the identical commute in Iowa, or 2) had a mostly highway commute. I have only 2500 miles on it so far, so I'm certainly going to give it a couple thousand more and an oil change to see if there's any difference.

- I'm not looking to impress anyone or enter autocross with this thing. I'm 45, married, with two children and this is just a fun, temporary (at least my wife hopes so) hobby for me. I'm just having fun doing some aesthetic modifications and thought I might want to make a few simple performance mods just for kicks. I don't want to "rice" it up, but I've always wanted to personalize a car -- with every car I've owned, I've always thought "this would be really great if it just had...", but I've never done anything about it because either 1) I didn't have the time/money/guts or 2) at some point in the car's life I didn't want to start since I was already getting tired of it. With this car purchase, I decided I was going to do what I've always wanted to do and I wasn't going to wait until it was too late.

Understood that some of you will roll your eyes and think, "what an idiot". That's fine and, at times, I might agree with you.

Anyway, sorry for the long response, but I just wanted to express how much I appreciate your posts and how much I've learned.


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NevynPA
post Sep 13 2011, 01:30 PM
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That, good sir, is a stand up post and I commend you for it.

I'm towards the end of "non-scientific testing" of a K&N filter on my 2004. I've tried to eliminate as many variables as possible for the final results (which will get posted here), but it's by no means a controlled test.

Hills do kill MPG. I'm a hypermiler, and practically live and die by my instantaneous MPG readout on my ScanGauge. If I can keep top gear while climbing, with the engine under as much load as it will take without downshifting, I'll be doing about 18 MPG. As soon as it shifts, we're talking 11-13 MPG. It's real easy to bring an average down, but real hard to push it up. Depending on the road conditions, you may be able to gain a little by going to N for the downhill to pick up some speed (depending on your speed at crest and what lies ahead), and then use that speed to carry you partway up the next hill. If you work at it, you'll be able to get down to a few tenths loss on a hill. If you REALLY work at it, you'll be able to break even.

It's not easy. It's long, hard, and frustrating to try and time yourself perfectly to speed, roadway, traffic conditions, et cetera for best MPG. Most of all, it can be Frustrating with a capital F.

Keep at it though! I'm pulling for ya...we're all in this together.


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benman
post Sep 13 2011, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE (NevynPA @ Sep 13 2011, 02:30 PM) *
That, good sir, is a stand up post and I commend you for it.

I'm towards the end of "non-scientific testing" of a K&N filter on my 2004. I've tried to eliminate as many variables as possible for the final results (which will get posted here), but it's by no means a controlled test.

Hills do kill MPG. I'm a hypermiler, and practically live and die by my instantaneous MPG readout on my ScanGauge. If I can keep top gear while climbing, with the engine under as much load as it will take without downshifting, I'll be doing about 18 MPG. As soon as it shifts, we're talking 11-13 MPG. It's real easy to bring an average down, but real hard to push it up. Depending on the road conditions, you may be able to gain a little by going to N for the downhill to pick up some speed (depending on your speed at crest and what lies ahead), and then use that speed to carry you partway up the next hill. If you work at it, you'll be able to get down to a few tenths loss on a hill. If you REALLY work at it, you'll be able to break even.

It's not easy. It's long, hard, and frustrating to try and time yourself perfectly to speed, roadway, traffic conditions, et cetera for best MPG. Most of all, it can be Frustrating with a capital F.

Keep at it though! I'm pulling for ya...we're all in this together.


Thanks. I'll be really interested to see what you find. Yes, it seems that more fuel gets sucked uphill than is saved going down.

But as for riding in neutral, the way I understand it, allowing the engine to provide braking on a downhill actually saves gas because fuel is shut off and the engine goes into a closed-loop mode in which the air keeps it running. So, higher revs doesn't mean anything because 3000 RPM with no fuel uses less gas than 1000 useing fuel.

This is only true of electronic fuel-injected engines though. This would not have been true with an older car with a carburetor, which would make it another "Dad doesn't know best because he's still thinking '70s" type of thing, like oil change frequency.

Then again, if you're coasting not because the coasting saves fuel, but because it lets you build up speed unfettered for the next hill, then yes, I guess it might. What does your instaneous gas mileage say on a typical downhill in neutral vs. allowing the engine to brake?

I'd worry about wear and tear on the transmission though from shifting back and forth while moving -- whether automatic or manual.


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NevynPA
post Sep 13 2011, 02:38 PM
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Engine is always in closed loop (after warmup). DFCO (fuel cut) on downhills is good for 0 fuel burned, but if you need momentum more than you need braking, then you're taking away that momentum by DFCO'ing instead of N-coasting. Think of rolling hills as a roller-coaster: gain speed down, burn off that speed on the way up. BIG hills, DFCO is best. It all depends on the terrain and the skill/comfort level of the driver.

My 04 doesn't do a full DFCO; at least not in a way that the ScanGauge can see. It does *something,* but I can't quite tell what. Maybe just a lean-burn mode; I'd need to oscilliscope monitor an injector to find out for sure.

Down big hills in D = 140 MPG (ish)
Down big hills in 3 = 93 MPG (ish)
Down big hills in N (60 MPH) = 285 MPG

It's most likely ALL different with your new engine.


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